Do you three point, or wheel land?
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Do you three point, or wheel land?
Hey, tailwheel pilots here...
Is it generally your practice to three point, or wheel land the taildraggers you fly?
I was taught to threepoint, with no emphasis on wheel landing untill I did some circuits in a large taildragger twin. Most of my experience has been on C180/185 (Paradropping), and J3/PA-18 (mostly skis). They all seem very happy to be three pointed. The taildragger I have at present does not. Three pointing works, but if it's a good landing, it seems more luck than skill.
While landing it recently with what I suspected might be a tailwheel which did not extend, and lock down properly, I slightly wheel landed, and then held the tail as light as I could as long as I could. I got a great landing! After confirming that the tailwheel was in fact locked down, I did a number more wheel landings with equal success, to the point where I can have just about full stick forward just after touchdown. I've done about 30 such landings since then, and don't think I'd ever try to three point this plane again!
Perhaps my original training (Citabria and Tiger Moth) was not as broad as it should have been...
What can I learn from this revelation?
Is it generally your practice to three point, or wheel land the taildraggers you fly?
I was taught to threepoint, with no emphasis on wheel landing untill I did some circuits in a large taildragger twin. Most of my experience has been on C180/185 (Paradropping), and J3/PA-18 (mostly skis). They all seem very happy to be three pointed. The taildragger I have at present does not. Three pointing works, but if it's a good landing, it seems more luck than skill.
While landing it recently with what I suspected might be a tailwheel which did not extend, and lock down properly, I slightly wheel landed, and then held the tail as light as I could as long as I could. I got a great landing! After confirming that the tailwheel was in fact locked down, I did a number more wheel landings with equal success, to the point where I can have just about full stick forward just after touchdown. I've done about 30 such landings since then, and don't think I'd ever try to three point this plane again!
Perhaps my original training (Citabria and Tiger Moth) was not as broad as it should have been...
What can I learn from this revelation?
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It depends what I'm flying. A cub or Cessna 140, I nearly always three point. In the Dromader or Air Tractor, I nearly always land on the mains.
Some airplanes naturally feel better one way or the other. For some, visibility plays a role and it's easier to wheel land in order to see where you're going. In short field situations, I've met some who insist on the three point, and I can't disagree, but I usually two point the bigger airplanes and suck up the flaps while it's on two wheels.
Where reverse is an option (eg, Dromader, Air Tractor, Thrush, etc) I prefer to have the tail on the ground before applying reverse.
Try landing an AT-802 with the tailwheel unlocked, three point...there's a recipe to go for a wild ride.
Some airplanes naturally feel better one way or the other. For some, visibility plays a role and it's easier to wheel land in order to see where you're going. In short field situations, I've met some who insist on the three point, and I can't disagree, but I usually two point the bigger airplanes and suck up the flaps while it's on two wheels.
Where reverse is an option (eg, Dromader, Air Tractor, Thrush, etc) I prefer to have the tail on the ground before applying reverse.
Try landing an AT-802 with the tailwheel unlocked, three point...there's a recipe to go for a wild ride.
If you land a nose wheel aeroplane properly, it is really no different to landing a tail wheel aeroplane ... (apart from some high performance or heavy types).
You can, of course, make it as difficult as you want..(like most thngs in aviation)!
UV
You can, of course, make it as difficult as you want..(like most thngs in aviation)!
UV
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Thread Starter
If you land a nose wheel aeroplane properly, it is really no different to landing a tail wheel aeroplane
If you get a tailwheel on the ground, you have largely lost the ability to change the pitch of the whole aircraft with the elevator, because the tail (where the elevator is) is on the ground, and short of lifting the tail off again, you can no longer control the pitch of the aircraft. Thus, if uneven ground causes a bounce of the mains, there is very little you can do to correct for it using pitch control of the aircraft. So, you can end up with the tail wheel on the ground, and the mains bouncing on and off, until you're slower than stall speed for the three point angle of attack.
Alternatively, you land so slowly that the tailwheel touches first, then again, you loose pitch control, and cannot control the rate at which the mains contact the ground. If it bounces, there's little to do, other than ride it out.
Whereas, if you wheel land it, you can hold lots of nose down/tail up, so as to hold a very low angle of attack, so the wing has no inclination to fly, if bounced on rough ground. By the time the tail settles (with full stick forward), you're well below stall speed, so no bounce can happen.
If you tried that on a tricycle (and I've seen it - accidentally, I hope!) if you manage to maintain directional control, you've put an immense load on the nosewheel. I cannot imagine a piloting technique which involves deliberately lowering the angle of attack to near zero, on the ground, in a tricycle. You're trying to keep the nosewheel light as much as possible.
I'm not writing all of this, because I'm a wheel landing advocate, it just seems to work for this plane! Though the flight manual says to three point it. I'm not sure why, because a prop strike during a wheel landing would be impossible for this aircraft, so wheel landing seems to be good all the way around, and I think of minimizing abuse to the tailwheel as a bonus!
I'm still not sure I'd have the confidence to wheel land a 185, though I have seen it done...
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I generally wheel land most every tail wheel airplane I have flown....the only exception being the Pitts special.
If conditions require a three point then I will three point..in most airplanes......never tried to three point the Grumman Turbo Goose though.
If conditions require a three point then I will three point..in most airplanes......never tried to three point the Grumman Turbo Goose though.
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I like to 3-point because it's satisfying (a bit like playing a good rim-shot) and it's standard on the aircraft I was taught - Cub, Jodel D150, Tiger Moth and Turbulent. But, anything more than a light crosswind and on the mains she goes.
If you land a nose wheel aeroplane properly, it is really no different to landing a tail wheel aeroplane ... (apart from some high performance or heavy types
If a tail wheel areoplane is properly and fully flared it will land without bouncing, as will a nose wheel aircraft. Most pilots do not flare their nose wheel aircraft fully.
The decision as to whether to use the 3 point or wheeler landing is another discussion and depends on type/circumstances etc.
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Almost always three point: Chipmunk, Tiger Moth, Stampe, Jodel D150, Turbulent, Harvard (Texan)T6 / SNJ.
Usually wheel on: Broussard.
Always wheel on: Beech 18.
cjboy
I suspect Chuck's tongue was in his cheek when he posed that question.
PilotDAR
What is it?
Usually wheel on: Broussard.
Always wheel on: Beech 18.
cjboy
I suspect Chuck's tongue was in his cheek when he posed that question.
PilotDAR
They all seem very happy to be three pointed. The taildragger I have at present does not.
When doing tailwheel conversions I start with 3 point landings because it is a more natural transition for a pilot coming from a nose wheel aircraft. When they master them I introduce the wheel landing. I personally have never had any problem 3 pointing any of the common light aircraft in any conditions, but I am sure there are aircraft out there that do better with a wheel landing. It seems to me you just have to expereiment to find out what works best.
Heavier taildraggers like the Beech 18 or larger are always wheel landed.
Heavier taildraggers like the Beech 18 or larger are always wheel landed.
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One of my flying stories coming up for what it's worth:
In the dim distant days when I had just obtained my PPL, learning on a Cessna 150 and a Rollason Condor which I was always taught to land on three points, I wanted to check out on a Chipmunk. Although I had no difficulty flying the thing, I found landings particularly difficult. My instructor, with only a little experience on the Chippie wanted me to three point it - a perfectly reasonable thing to expect. After about two sessions of circuit bashing I appeared to be getting nowhere, so in the pub that night I bumped into a friend who had loads of Chipmunk instructional experience. "Get your instructor to let you wheel land it" was his advice and he then told me how to do a wheeler.
After following his instructions with my instructor in the back I was off solo after three circuits! After several solo hours on the aircraft, I managed to three point it and continued to do so ever since.
P.P.
In the dim distant days when I had just obtained my PPL, learning on a Cessna 150 and a Rollason Condor which I was always taught to land on three points, I wanted to check out on a Chipmunk. Although I had no difficulty flying the thing, I found landings particularly difficult. My instructor, with only a little experience on the Chippie wanted me to three point it - a perfectly reasonable thing to expect. After about two sessions of circuit bashing I appeared to be getting nowhere, so in the pub that night I bumped into a friend who had loads of Chipmunk instructional experience. "Get your instructor to let you wheel land it" was his advice and he then told me how to do a wheeler.
After following his instructions with my instructor in the back I was off solo after three circuits! After several solo hours on the aircraft, I managed to three point it and continued to do so ever since.
P.P.
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I might have missed something, but what type is giving you trouble?
I'm still a student, but all my landings are three pointers. (PA-18 & Aeronca Champ) So threepoint landings are still being taught today.
Is this normal practice for a wheel landing? I was taught to move the stick back after (a threepoint) landing and keep it there. Only if a tailwheel shimmy develops some forward movement is permitted.
Does this (no stalled landings) also apply to crosswind landings?
I'm still a student, but all my landings are three pointers. (PA-18 & Aeronca Champ) So threepoint landings are still being taught today.
...to the point where I can have just about full stick forward just after touchdown.
...and don't think I'd ever try to three point this plane again!
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I'm fortunate enough to a have a Thruston Teal here at home for a while:
Thurston Teal Amphibian
They are a little unusual on wheels, in that they have their main wheels a long way ahead of the C of G, to account for the high thrust line. Thus, when you bounce it, or hit a bump, there is a pitch change. It's easy to get porposing if you are not careful.
I entirely agree, and always do in tricycles. After the first few landings in the Teal, I proved to myelf, I could not make this work in the Teal. If I fully flared it, the tail wheel was on before the mains. Then I had no pitch control at all, and a bounce was a certainty, as the mains dropped on.
And, yes, yesterday's landings were stick smoothly fully forward to maintain pitch attitude upon touchdown, and held until the tail went down on it's own. It worked perfectly every time. I have yet to put this to the test in a big crosswind (a bit nervous of it), but in a steady six knot crosswind, it was just fine. I'm not sure what tailwheel "normal" is, but I'm getting the idea there is not one.
I've only landed a DC-3 about ten times. I was taught to never attempt to wheel land it. My one bounced landing (a bit slow) became an immediate go around, as I felt the power levers being pushed up under my hand, and saw torque meters in the yellow.
Thurston Teal Amphibian
They are a little unusual on wheels, in that they have their main wheels a long way ahead of the C of G, to account for the high thrust line. Thus, when you bounce it, or hit a bump, there is a pitch change. It's easy to get porposing if you are not careful.
If a tail wheel aeroplane is properly and fully flared it will land without bouncing
And, yes, yesterday's landings were stick smoothly fully forward to maintain pitch attitude upon touchdown, and held until the tail went down on it's own. It worked perfectly every time. I have yet to put this to the test in a big crosswind (a bit nervous of it), but in a steady six knot crosswind, it was just fine. I'm not sure what tailwheel "normal" is, but I'm getting the idea there is not one.
When would you three point a DC3?
I was taught to wheel land during primary training in a PA12. My instructor considered it harder and therefore focused on it. Those skills carried over for a long time into everything else I flew with a tailwheel, and I could even wheel on the S2A just fine. My acro instructor thought it was odd but he thought I seemed to know where the runway was. I was weak in 3-point landings.
Since I started towing on Harris Hill some years ago, where we only have 1100' and it runs downhill in one direction, I have really become proficient at the 3 point landing. Chews up a lot more energy than wheeling it on at a higher speed.
Both options are good.
-- IFMU
Since I started towing on Harris Hill some years ago, where we only have 1100' and it runs downhill in one direction, I have really become proficient at the 3 point landing. Chews up a lot more energy than wheeling it on at a higher speed.
Both options are good.
-- IFMU
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CEA in their manuals for the DR220/221/250 suggest a slightly tailwheel first landing.
I've always found that a bit harsh and prefer to 3-point Jodels, although that technique seems to work well for Austers, Taylorcraft and the like. A 3-pointer will always use the least runway ,if that's an issue.
With the RVs, I've found that 3 pointers work well for the tapered rod gears but the flat bar varieties like the -8 seem to behave better with a wheeler.
My top tip is to hiold a little nose-up trim for a 3-point landing and a little nose down for a wheeler.
I rarely managed to wheel on the Cessna 120 succesfully; just too springy.
I've always found that a bit harsh and prefer to 3-point Jodels, although that technique seems to work well for Austers, Taylorcraft and the like. A 3-pointer will always use the least runway ,if that's an issue.
With the RVs, I've found that 3 pointers work well for the tapered rod gears but the flat bar varieties like the -8 seem to behave better with a wheeler.
My top tip is to hiold a little nose-up trim for a 3-point landing and a little nose down for a wheeler.
I rarely managed to wheel on the Cessna 120 succesfully; just too springy.
My one bounced landing (a bit slow) became an immediate go around, as I felt the power levers being pushed up under my hand, and saw torque meters in the yellow.
I've heard you can break the back of the plane if a three point goes bad. Especially C-47s where a quarter of the fuselage is cut for the door. Did it a few times in a regular Three (three points, not breaking the plane's back!) don't recall trying in a Super Three and my Turbo Three time is next to nil.