Passed PPL - GPS?

[Airbusboy]

Hello every one. Recently passed my skills.

Now a GPS seems like an invaluable tool. I'm planning to do my CPL IR etc in the near future and build PIC hours this year. Is it a bit cheeky to move on to GPS nav (with a chart for back up at all times of course)

Should I improve my map reading skills a lot more instead of jumping straight to a Garmin or something?

Common sense tells me I should still stick to the good old charts.

[liam548]

I left it about 7 months before buying a clarity. Up to you t end of the day. If you have it the temptation is to use despite what you might say now about leaving it for "just in case".


I still plan all my flights using the whizz wheel and plot them on a PLOG and chart. Until my CPL is done i have to keep my hand in.

[A and C]

GPS ?...........No No No !

The last thing that you want is to become anther follower of the magenta line, now is the time to hone your VFR navigation skills because that is what you will need to pass the CPL skills test.

At this moment in your flying career there are better things to spend your money on than a GPS.

[FlyingStone]

Put the GPS away for now... Like said before, try to master the skill of pure VFR navigation (dead reckoning) and when you can navigate anywhere, anytime with it, proceed to radio navigation. Much more useful then following the magenta line for the next 100 hours...

[Heliplane]

Put the GPS away for now... Like said before, try to master the skill of pure VFR navigation (dead reckoning) and when you can navigate anywhere, anytime with it, proceed to radio navigation. Much more useful then following the magenta line for the next 100 hours...

Totally agree with the above. The ability to hold a map on your lap and know where you are at all times seems to be a dying skill. If you can develop that skill, however, it will keep your eyes outside the cockpit (where they belong most of the time for most PPLs) and will make you much more aware of where you are and what is going on around you.

[JOE-FBS]

Rather than one of the expensive, distracting, GPS units, I would recommend the NATS Aware item. It costs less than a couple of hours flying and will keep you honest by showing where you are on the same half mil' map you are flying with plus it beeps at you if it thinks you might be about to infringe. It doesn't do anything else (unless you buy some extensions which rather defeats the object of the thing) so doesn't encourage you to be head down when VFR.

PS I still do most of my navigating by looking out of the window!

[Whopity]

(with a chart for back up at all times of course)

A chart is never back-up for a GPS! It is a legal requirement ANO Schedule 4 Table A

(2) Maps, charts, codes and other documents and navigational equipment necessary, in addition to any other equipment required under this Order, for the intended flight of the aircraft including any diversion which may reasonably be expected.

[BackPacker]

I've been flying so far with just a Garmin eTrex Euro in my flight bag. Using OziExplorer I entered all the coordinates of all Dutch and Belgium airfields as simple waypoints, extending that database as and when required. Most flights I do are purely visual, sometimes I turn that GPS on as a backup, depending on weather and flight/route complexity.

Not to say that you *have to* buy a cheapo outdoor GPS, but the top end of the range (Garmin 695) is currently well over 1800 UKP and it's simply not necessary. But I have to say that I like the idea of having a backup GPS at hand to help me if I get unsure of position somehow, and the eTrex works for me.

For UK flying, the NATS Aware tool is just about the best value for money you can get.

Oh, and don't forget to learn how to use the GPS that might be in the aircraft already. You paid for them already, best to use them if they're there anyway. Garmin does an excellent simulator for the GNS430/530 series and up.

[Airbusboy]

Thanks for clarifying that Whopity, and thanks all for the advice. Looks like I will stick to the 1:500,000 charts then.

JOE-FBS, the NATS Aware system looks really neat. Would be very useful in the event of becoming lost/disorientated, and the price is affordable.

[172driver]

contrarian opinion

OK, I'll bite and jump in - get yourselves a cheap (Garmin 96 or somesuch) GPS. If you can afford (eBay ?), then a 296.

Why? Simple - you are at the beginning of your flying career and GPS will play a much larger role in this in the future than it does now (in the US this is already the case, Europe, as usual, lags a couple of decades and the UK a few more). It certainly cannot be a bad idea to acquaint yourself with the functionalities of what is already the de-facto standard navigation instrument.

That said, I am NOT advocating throwing the paper charts out the window. Use both, learn both and all the other navigation instruments you have in the cockpit.

Congrats to your new license and happy flying

[A and C]

The 172 Driver is correct about GPS being the navigation system of the future but following the line on a GPS of any type is not going to help you get the CPL navigation flight test done.

The cheap end of the GPS market will not help you understand the IFR systems that you will encounter in IR trainning and if as your handle indicates you want to move onto the french all electric jet buy a 20 year old computor, that might have something in common with the dreadfull Airbus FMC.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Originally Posted by A and C

The last thing that you want is to become anther follower of the magenta line, now is the time to hone your VFR navigation skills because that is what you will need to pass the CPL skills test.

At this moment in your flying career there are better things to spend your money on than a GPS.

I find these kind of remarks more an indication of a lack of knowledge and understanding of how to practically use GPS for VFR cross country, than a rational argument. There is a lot more to using a GPS than "following the magenta line". It is a navigation tool that has great strengths but also some weaknesses. Properly using this tool makes flying safer, more efficent, and (sometimes) easier. To willfully deprive yourself of accurate postion information is IMO simply silly. In fact as silly as mindlessly following the magenta line. My advice is get a simple used GPS unit of e-bay, then learn how to use it. There is a wealth of practical GPS usage tips on the web so do your homework and undstand exactly what the unit is telling you. Plan your trips as normal and us the bearing/track/speed/time/distance infomation to back up your PLOG, and most important keep your thumb moving along the Map

Finally if you need to get onto the ground now don't mess around with some huge complicated 20 step diversion process , hit the nearset airport button !

I had an interesting chat with a very long time and very proficent VFR PPL. He was an early and enthusastic adopter of GPS. He remembers a fellow making a disparaging comment along the lines of "real pilots don't use GPS to navigate, they only need a map".
He learned to fly in 1960 and remembers the exact same comment only than it was "real pilots don't use a Directional Gyro to navigate they only need a magnetic compass". At that time most small light aircraft did not have vacuum systems and DG's were fairly rare. Over time the obvious advantages of the new technology became so obvious that not using it was exceptional.....

[LH2]

Ah, another GPS thread... oh well

My contribution:

For your own flying, use whatever you feel more comfortable with.

For the CPL skills test you will need to do all the line-on-a-map bollockry so you need to master that. I dare say that a GPS can be a useful tool in that respect, as you can do your all your old fashioned navigation stuff as they like it for the skills test and you can see how well you did by comparing against the GPS (either during or post-flight, if the thing has a recording function).

The one thing to keep in mind is that the GPS is only as good as the batteries powering it. On the other hand, you'll be glad you're carrying a GPS if your map goes flying out the window or disappears under the carpet (speaking from experience, my cunning backup in the form of a DIN A4 with a Google Maps printout of the whole of Northern Italy and the route pencilled over it only got me so far )

Ah, forgot to say: I'm usually GPS-less and DI-less, including on long range multi-day navs but that's only because I enjoy flying that way.

[BackPacker]

Oh, if you're going to buy a GPS, you might consider the SkyDemon as well.

Tim Dawson wrote SkyDemon, a VFR flight planning program to run on your PC and during development got a lot of feedback here on PPRuNe. It's definitely not a bad product. It includes a PDA based program, so you prepare the route on your PC, then upload it to the PDA to fly it. Together with the latest NOTAMs, METARs, TAFs and whatnot.

From a few posts he made it was clear that he somehow hooked up with a manufacturer to create a dedicated GPS device for use with SkyDemon. And I just noticed it's available for pre-order now.

Welcome to SkyDemon, VFR Flight Planning Software and GPS Navigation Devices

If his past performance is anything to go by, this product might just blow the competition for VFR GPSs away.

[dublinpilot]

A GPS is a fantastic tool. It makes your flights a lot easier (and safer) and a lot less stressful because you know 100% sure where you are at any given time...no second guessing, no mental overload.

I got my GPS shortly after I became uncomfortable about my position (maybe two years after getting my PPL).

The the essence of your question seems to be about whether you should get it before or after your CPL. Having never done a CPL, I'm not really in a good position to advise you on that, so will leave it to the other.

But one thing that I did want to comment on is the idea being posted by some of having it as a backup that you can call on if things start to go wrong. I do not think that it's a good idea having a GPS in the flight bag to bring out to save the day when things go wrong. The reason for this is because GPS's rely on their last known position to help speed up the fix. They also use a database that is updated regularly to help predict where the satelites are going to be.

If your GPS hasn't been used in some time then both of these pieces of information will be well out of date, meaning that your GPS is trying to find it's own position based on out of date information. This means that on the ground with a good view of the sky, it may take some time. Put it inside the aircraft (without an external antenna such as would be the case with a portable unit) with an out of date almanec (database of where the satelites are) will put it at a significant disadvantage. Then take into account that the aeroplane is moving along quite fast (and hence your position constantly changing) and you are really making the GPS work to find its position.

With a modern chip such as the sirf III then it will take some time to get things sorted out...could easily be quite a number of minutes. With a Sirf II or earlier, then you couldn't even be 100% sure that it will ever find it's position until you have stopped moving.

So in an emergency, the GPS that has lived in your bag for the past couple of months without being used, is more likely to be a useless distraction than a 'get out of jail free card'.

I remember reading about someone on the Flyer forums a few years ago, who had their GPS for emergencies only, who was having difficulty finding a grass strip, and was running out of daylight. They pulled out the backup GPS expecting it to save the day, and it never managed to get a signal.

I tell you this as a Beta Tester of PocketFMS, so I should be encouraging you to buy a GPS system! But I would in all honesty advise you not to buy one if it's just going to live in your flight bag to save the day in an emergency.

GPS's are also complicated systms, and to use one correctly, you should have some regular practice with it long before the emergency, which again isn't really in tune with the 'in the bag for an emergency'.

The only way that I see it as being an 'in an emergency' system, but not used for nav normally, is if you set it up, get a signal, then put it somewhere out of sight...eg on the back side windows. Then it will have the signal when you need it, but isn't available while you are trying to practice your dead reckoning. But temptation to look at it will always be strong!

Incidently in this senario it does have a second advantge, or being able to look at your flight tracks post flight and see where you made any mistakes in your DR. PocketFMS, and some of the others too, will allow you to output your breadcrumbs to Google Earth. You can then see what caused problems in your DR. In my case for example, i was able to see in a number of flights, that I had a habit of turning over the start of a town, rather than over the actual centre, and I could then see how this magnified errors over the rest of the flight. So in this senario it does have some advantages.

But don't buy one to leave in your flight bag until it's needed.

dp

[tomtom_91]

Leave it in your bad... how stupid

Check out the NATS aware! - Cheap and cheerful

Tom

[dublinpilot]

Beaware that the basic NATS GPS unit doesn't have most of the featues that are standard on GPS systems. Eg, it has no route planning, no nearest functions for an emergency diversion, no breadcrumbs, and has no info about any airport other than what's shown on the paper chart. These are some of the most useful features of a GPS.

All the NATS unit will do is tell you where you are, and warn that you are about to enter controlled airspace.

There is an add on (costing almost the same price again if I remember correctly) that will add some of these features, but that makes it more expensive than many other systems.

dp

[Ryan5252]

Leave it in your bad... how stupid

...how constructive!

The GPS v Chart is well documented in this thread and many, many others. However, BPF makes a valid point about learning how to use it. For this I believe Microsoft Flight Simulator (Sorry BPF!) might be a cheap and cheerfull way to help you achieve a decent level of familiarity with the Garmin models. Most follow a similar operating system I found from using them on the sim has helped tremendously in my real life post PPL flying. It is crucial that you know how to operate a GPS before you start fiddling about in the air as this can lead to disastrous results!

All the best
Ryan

[BackPacker]

The reason for this is because GPS's rely on their last known position to help speed up the fix. They also use a database that is updated regularly to help predict where the satelites are going to be.

Good point. The eTrex I have can take 15 minutes (worst case scenario) to find a fix. So, yes, that's a reason to take it out of the bag and switch it on quite early. If it's been used recently and I haven't moved a significant distance since then, it'll normally get a fix in two-three minutes though.

That particular eTrex is over ten years old though. Modern units with newer receivers should be a lot quicker. On the other hand, I've used it so often for all kinds of purposes that I do know how to use it to the fullest extent. (Admittedly, not that hard with only five buttons and five main pages.)

[mm_flynn]

No matter how good the GPS receiver is, it will take some 15 minutes to lock on if it has not been used for a number of months (due to needing to reload the whole Almanac (the general plan for where the satellites should be for the next few months).

2-3 minutes is the machine refreshing its Ephemeris, which I believe takes 30 seconds every minute to broadcast.