Grob/Cirrus collision June 2009 - report out
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The Tutor/glider midair was at 4150 feet.
The UK midair stats, post-WW2, are 100% in VMC and nearly all below 1000ft. One recent one was at 1800ft. This one (if 4150ft AGL) is incredibly rare. I know gliders do fly high (up to the base of CU) and thus probably form 99% of the risk above 2000ft, but at the same time they are evidently statistically rare when away from known concentrations.
Are you aware of different stats Astir?
Class G is Class G and nothing can be done about that. And even CAS is not a perfect protector since somebody can bust it, and if they are not Mode C and if the CAS does not touch the ground they will remain undetectable.
IMHO, for most GA TCAS owners, the system addresses a powerful emotional (Russian roulette) issue. Speaking to a non-flying person, or more importantly a non-knowledgeable family member, one of their most alarming realisations is that IMC flight is purely done on chance. So I just tell them there are no known IMC mid-airs in the UK. (And the GA activity level in the rest of Europe is usually far lower or nonexistent).
And flying with TCAS does show you that much if not most traffic presumably visible to a radar controller providing a Traffic Service is not actually reported to you due to controller workload
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IO: "The UK midair stats, post-WW2, are 100% in VMC and nearly all below 1000ft." Not strictly true, if you meant to include gliding incidents in that generalisation, although the exceptions do not alter the general thrust of your argument.
I have gliding collision statistics since 1987, and powered aircraft statistics for a recent ten-year period, and know the circumstances of some of each. A lot of the information, however, is not in the public domain.
I also have Airprox data covering a 22 year period. These inevitably are underreported, particularly like-on-like at the low end - e.g., there are no glider on glider or paraglider on paraglider Airprox reports, though I know that there are incidents that fall in the former category and expect there will be in the latter - but we don't report on each other when flying the same sort of thing.
It is certainly true that there is a preponderance of incidents within the circuit area and at heights not dissimilar from circuit heights - that is where most flying things mostly come into proximity.
I think I have been corresponding with your alter ego recently, by e-mail. If that is so, I have an e-mail address for you, and can send you some information privately, if you are interested.
Chris N
I have gliding collision statistics since 1987, and powered aircraft statistics for a recent ten-year period, and know the circumstances of some of each. A lot of the information, however, is not in the public domain.
I also have Airprox data covering a 22 year period. These inevitably are underreported, particularly like-on-like at the low end - e.g., there are no glider on glider or paraglider on paraglider Airprox reports, though I know that there are incidents that fall in the former category and expect there will be in the latter - but we don't report on each other when flying the same sort of thing.
It is certainly true that there is a preponderance of incidents within the circuit area and at heights not dissimilar from circuit heights - that is where most flying things mostly come into proximity.
I think I have been corresponding with your alter ego recently, by e-mail. If that is so, I have an e-mail address for you, and can send you some information privately, if you are interested.
Chris N
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It's an interesting thought actually. I've remained puzzled that a very experienced pilot, who presumably realised that he couldn't move his head as much as he once could, should have chosen to do aerobatics in one of the busiest bits of Class G sky in the UK - despite warnings broadcast by the Benson ATC about heavy glider traffic.
And in all fairness to the poor bloke, all the other Tutors flying out of Benson on that day seem to have flown similar flight paths.
I wonder if they also relied on the assumption that the sky is much quieter at 3000+ feet and that midairs are (fortunately) even more unusual at those levels? It's probably a valid assumption - EXCEPT ON A GOOD SOARING DAY.
And in all fairness to the poor bloke, all the other Tutors flying out of Benson on that day seem to have flown similar flight paths.
I wonder if they also relied on the assumption that the sky is much quieter at 3000+ feet and that midairs are (fortunately) even more unusual at those levels? It's probably a valid assumption - EXCEPT ON A GOOD SOARING DAY.
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How would you propose that gliders are allowed into Brize zone then? Bearing in mind that the Brize zone exists to protect passenger airlines (civil and military) with sometimes up to 260 POB? Surely that is far more important that a few gliders?
If anything has to give stop the gliders flying or put AEF into the Benson visual circuit. Then the kids would still get their flying but not be put into danger.
If anything has to give stop the gliders flying or put AEF into the Benson visual circuit. Then the kids would still get their flying but not be put into danger.
No idea why this has been pulled forward from 2010 but interesting that no one commented on Astir8's post.
In the end you can complicate this as many ways as you might like to with full medical analysis and potential technical solutions but ultimately poor airmanship on the part of the Tutor pilot is to blame.
He shunted circa 1 hour after warnings from Benson ATC of heavy glider traffic and one would have expected him to have had visual with much of that traffic in the prior flights. Still he chose to continue with what would seem a routine path.
Then one might ask what about the Location and Lookout of his pre-aeros HASELL check?
In the end you can complicate this as many ways as you might like to with full medical analysis and potential technical solutions but ultimately poor airmanship on the part of the Tutor pilot is to blame.
He shunted circa 1 hour after warnings from Benson ATC of heavy glider traffic and one would have expected him to have had visual with much of that traffic in the prior flights. Still he chose to continue with what would seem a routine path.
Then one might ask what about the Location and Lookout of his pre-aeros HASELL check?
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"The UK midair stats, post-WW2, are 100% in VMC and nearly all below 1000ft."
I seem to recall a Wessex and Harrier that came together IMC and amazingly both landed safely with no loss of life.
Did the two Tornado's that smacked into one another a few years back meet below a 1,000 feet?
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The "all below 1000ft" is not true. Many examples of collisions above this height but it is generally true that the higher you fly the less likely it is. Above 3000ft there are very few. Another example was the crash near Rugeley on 16 December 2007 Between a Luscombe 8E Silvaire and a Pacific Aerospace 750XL which happened at around 1500ft AGL. The two people in the Luscombe were killed, the 750XL landed at East Mids.
Rod1
Rod1
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http://www.airproxboard.org.uk/docs/423/BOOK%2028.pdf
See if this works
The front section has a good set of statistics for the various danger zones for GA.
Also that not taking a basic or traffic service means less airprox's
See if this works
The front section has a good set of statistics for the various danger zones for GA.
Also that not taking a basic or traffic service means less airprox's
