PIC?

[AdamFrisch]

I'm doing my FAA standalone at the moment and the instructors don't log it as PIC time, as would be expected. Until I flew 2 hrs helicopter the other day and he insisted I put it down as PIC (which doesn't make sense since I never finished my rating/PPL H).

But it got me thinking about the Cessna time:

FAR 61.51 says: A private or commercial pilot may log PIC time if that person is "the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated".

I am the sole manipulator. I am rated for the aircraft on my ICAO (UK PPL).
What gives?

[Pace]

Adam to bump this up for you so that maybe someone else will answer here is my take!
To be PIC you must be licened to fly as Pilot in Command which also means you must be licenced to fly that particular N reg aircraft.
If the licences and ratings you hold qualify you to do so then simply the answer is YES?
If You are doing a standalone licence but already are qualified to fly the said aircraft by the FAA on the back of your UK licence then the answer also has to be YES?

The Helicopter Instructor has to be wrong in giving PIC time as does the Cessna instructor in denying you the PIC time.

Pace

[Ryan5252]

I can't speak for Helicopter procedures as make a point of having as little to do with them as possible, (can't speak much for fixed-wing either but I'll stick my neck out there). It is my understanding that as well as being 'sole manipulator of the controls' one also has to be 'in command' i.e. the instructor (if present) is aware that the final authority for the conduct of the flight lies with someone else. If it is a case of Adam (for example) flying the aircraft for the benefit of the instuctor/club i.e such as a check flight before solo hire - this would be P/UT (local procedures, different aircraft systems etc etc)??

If he was flying in the US on a UK (ICAO) PPL in an N Reg aircraft, it is my understanding this would be legal as long as he did not leave the US? (Assuming of course other requirements are met; Medical, Insurance etc etc)

Then again, it's FAA land so the above may be entirely bulls**t!

[IO540]

In FAA-land, one is usually logging training as PIC because even before you get the PPL you are flying on the Student Pilot Certificate, and e.g. IR training is done as an actually-VFR flight (under the hood). The 250nm IR X/C flight was done fully IFR but I can't recall how it was logged.

In the end it doesn't matter how it is logged... nobody actually cares. One day, an insurer may care about your total time, perhaps.

[SNS3Guppy]

FAR 61.51 says: A private or commercial pilot may log PIC time if that person is "the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated".

I am the sole manipulator. I am rated for the aircraft on my ICAO (UK PPL).
What gives?

Adam, I don't know what "standalone" means, but insofar as the regulation goes, ratings you may hold on another ICAO certificate are irrelevant.

The regulation refers to the holder of an FAA private or commercial pilot certificate. If you're rated on a given aircraft under another nation's regulation, then your logging of that time will be done in accordance with the regulations governing the nation (or conglomerate of nations) that issued your pilot certification.

When considering what the FAA allows you to log, understanding that the FAA regulation regarding logging applies only to the holders of FAA-issued pilot certification, you can see that the regulation is talking about FAA Private Pilots and FAA Commercial pilots.

As a student pilot, however, you may log PIC when solo. If you're a private pilot who is rated in the airplane (meaning you hold category and class ratings on your FAA certificate), you may log the time spent as sole manipulator, as PIC. Category and class for a Cessna 172, for example, would be Airplane (category), Single-Engine Land (Class).

You can log all the time you wish on another nationalities pilot certificate or license, but you'll need to do so according to the regulations of the nation that granted your pilot certification. When logging time on your FAA certificate, you'll need to log the time according to the regulations (and ratings) applicable to your FAA certificate.

[CanAmdelta1]

Adam

My understanding is a foreign license is invalid in the US if flying N reg. aircraft within the US borders.

This has come up previously when wishing to import and fly N reg. a/c out of of the US.

[mixsfour]

Slightly different situation for me (JAR licence, G-reg a/c in Britain) but,

I had to have a 28 day currency check with an instructor as it was 2 months since I last flew (flying club rule). He signed the a/c out as 'commander' with my name as student. However I took all decisions relating to the flight and was sole manipulator of the controls throughout. Should I log the time as P1, P/UT, or PiC U/S?

[Ryan5252]

I had to have a 28 day currency check with an instructor as it was 2 months since I last flew (flying club rule). He signed the a/c out as 'commander' with my name as student. However I took all decisions relating to the flight and was sole manipulator of the controls throughout. Should I log the time as P1, P/UT, or PiC U/S?

This should have been established before the flight commenced, I'm sure if you asked post-flight if you could log it P1 he may have been happy enough - but at the most the flight lasted an hour; does it really matter??

[AdamFrisch]

Thanks for clarifying that, gentlemen/women.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Originally Posted by mixsfour

Slightly different situation for me (JAR licence, G-reg a/c in Britain) but,

I had to have a 28 day currency check with an instructor as it was 2 months since I last flew (flying club rule). He signed the a/c out as 'commander' with my name as student. However I took all decisions relating to the flight and was sole manipulator of the controls throughout. Should I log the time as P1, P/UT, or PiC U/S?

This is an important question and should be firmly established before
the flight. It is surprisingly easy to get into a situation where each pilot thinks the other guy is going to do something withh the result that neither acts. This is especially important when prompt action is requires like for example in the case of a for real EFATO. Personally when I act as an instructor in this scenario I brief that I am the PIC and will take control in the event of any real world emergency with the student assisting me as I direct. This is a personal choice as there is no reason that the student (who holds a valid license in the eyes of the regulator) could not be designated as PIC, as long as the devison of duties was clear from the outset.