GPS as ADF substitute
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GPS as ADF substitute
I fly a Warrior with average Navaids (VOR/ILS/COM/ADF), but the ADF is u/s and the group isn't motivated to produce the money to fix it.
Having used the ADF (different PA28) for my IMC training, I miss it now.
I have a GPS III Pilot, which I use purely as a secondary navaid, and wondered if it is considered acceptable to use this as a substitute ADF?
Also, I haven't done any instrument landings in the 9 months since getting the IMC, but wanted to know your views on using the GPS as an ADF substitute on NDB holds? (I don't plan to try any IAs without refresher training!)
Having used the ADF (different PA28) for my IMC training, I miss it now.
I have a GPS III Pilot, which I use purely as a secondary navaid, and wondered if it is considered acceptable to use this as a substitute ADF?
Also, I haven't done any instrument landings in the 9 months since getting the IMC, but wanted to know your views on using the GPS as an ADF substitute on NDB holds? (I don't plan to try any IAs without refresher training!)
Guest
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If GPS satellite coverage is OK, then it will work fine. BUT it's not "acceptable" to the authorities as a primary navaid, so if you use your GPS III you are VFR looking out of the window as far as navigation is concerned.
The fact that it's more accurate and more reliable than ADF doesn't count.
In short - be careful!
Keef
The fact that it's more accurate and more reliable than ADF doesn't count.
In short - be careful!
Keef
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We are talking here about holds. I don't think there is any rule that says you can't use a GPS for holds.
You can use what you like for en route ,as far as I am aware, as long as you remain at a safe altitude and carry the equipment mandated for the class of airspace you are in and class of flying you are carrying out.
There again if you are needing to do a hold you probably also need to have a working ADF so it may not help you...
You can use what you like for en route ,as far as I am aware, as long as you remain at a safe altitude and carry the equipment mandated for the class of airspace you are in and class of flying you are carrying out.
There again if you are needing to do a hold you probably also need to have a working ADF so it may not help you...
Guest
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I can find no piece of legislation that requires the carriage or use of an ADF to fly an ILS approach, or even an NDB approach, OUTSIDE controlled airspace.
AFAICS, the only way in which you could be "hung out to dry" would be on the basis of endangering the aircraft. Welcome to the mid-grey area of executive risk management.
AFAICS, the only way in which you could be "hung out to dry" would be on the basis of endangering the aircraft. Welcome to the mid-grey area of executive risk management.
Guest
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As a point of interest has anyone ever been asked to take up a NDB hold and procedure? (light aircraft PA28's etc)
I've been flying for 14 years and renewed my IMC 3 times and I have never been asked to take up an NDB hold. In fact I can't remember being asked to take up ANY procedure, I have been told to hold (orbit) at current position....and then vectored on to the ILS, but I can't recall ever being requested to take up the hold and proceedure. I don't bother flying IMC these days but when I did I always had to ask to take up the procedure in order to get the practice in. I used to do some serious IMC approach's into EGHI and used to enjoy doing the VOR/DME proceedure, but I always had to request it. Makes sense really because it is far easier to be vectored than mess about trying to fly NDB holds etc. Just wondered if anyone else has had simillar experiences.
Regards
FBW
I've been flying for 14 years and renewed my IMC 3 times and I have never been asked to take up an NDB hold. In fact I can't remember being asked to take up ANY procedure, I have been told to hold (orbit) at current position....and then vectored on to the ILS, but I can't recall ever being requested to take up the hold and proceedure. I don't bother flying IMC these days but when I did I always had to ask to take up the procedure in order to get the practice in. I used to do some serious IMC approach's into EGHI and used to enjoy doing the VOR/DME proceedure, but I always had to request it. Makes sense really because it is far easier to be vectored than mess about trying to fly NDB holds etc. Just wondered if anyone else has had simillar experiences.
Regards
FBW
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Bookworm.
Legislation requires you to carry navaids appropriate to the type of approach to be flown which would seem to imply, given that GPS overlay approaches are not yet approved in our airspace, that you need to carry an ADF. Further to that even where they are approved, ie US, you are still required to have the appropriate navaids aswell as your GPS.
Given that most ILS approaches in this country use an NDB as the IAF it also seems reasonable that you need to carry an ADF to legally fly an ILS unless of course radar unserviceability is something which will never happen to you.
Also before trust your life to a GPS, the "No GPS position available" message is something which I have seen more than once.
Legislation requires you to carry navaids appropriate to the type of approach to be flown which would seem to imply, given that GPS overlay approaches are not yet approved in our airspace, that you need to carry an ADF. Further to that even where they are approved, ie US, you are still required to have the appropriate navaids aswell as your GPS.
Given that most ILS approaches in this country use an NDB as the IAF it also seems reasonable that you need to carry an ADF to legally fly an ILS unless of course radar unserviceability is something which will never happen to you.
Also before trust your life to a GPS, the "No GPS position available" message is something which I have seen more than once.
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Legislation requires you to carry navaids appropriate to the type of approach to be flown which would seem to imply, ...</font>
[This message has been edited by bookworm (edited 11 June 2001).]
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Flybywyre
Interesting point. I only worried about the NDB holds because I did them in training. If you're not commercial/professional (like me) and are only likely to be asked to orbit (which I've done several times), then do I really need to worry about keeping proficient in NDB holds? Your question begs another one that, if you have an IMC on the basis of safety/contingency, rather than regular and necessary flight in IMC conditions, then can you rely on vector approaches (SRA) (and keep practiced of course) rather than worrying about all instrument approaches? If memory is correct, on qualification for the IMC you get to choose one type of instrument approach anyway.
Interested in views on this.
Interesting point. I only worried about the NDB holds because I did them in training. If you're not commercial/professional (like me) and are only likely to be asked to orbit (which I've done several times), then do I really need to worry about keeping proficient in NDB holds? Your question begs another one that, if you have an IMC on the basis of safety/contingency, rather than regular and necessary flight in IMC conditions, then can you rely on vector approaches (SRA) (and keep practiced of course) rather than worrying about all instrument approaches? If memory is correct, on qualification for the IMC you get to choose one type of instrument approach anyway.
Interested in views on this.
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Flybywyre
NDB Holds are necessary at airfields without radar or indeed for NDB approaches themselves - have a look at the Approach plate for Rwy 22 at Cranfield. Plymouth and Sheffield will be the same. I've also been the pax in a Fokker 100 when the radar was out at East Mids - again holding was necessary to sequence us and the UPS 767 below us.
Bookworm
ANO Sched 5 and Article 15 are the reading that you want
CM
[This message has been edited by Chilli Monster (edited 12 June 2001).]
NDB Holds are necessary at airfields without radar or indeed for NDB approaches themselves - have a look at the Approach plate for Rwy 22 at Cranfield. Plymouth and Sheffield will be the same. I've also been the pax in a Fokker 100 when the radar was out at East Mids - again holding was necessary to sequence us and the UPS 767 below us.
Bookworm
ANO Sched 5 and Article 15 are the reading that you want
CM
[This message has been edited by Chilli Monster (edited 12 June 2001).]
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FBW
I did my instrument training at Oxford - also non-radar - if the conditions were IMC, we would generally have to hold, regardless of training requirements, as they can only have one IFR aircraft in the procedure at a time (hence we used to cancel IFR as soon as we broke cloud on the procedure).
I have also had to hold at Cranfield and Gloucester in IMC for similar reasons.
Any radar-equipped airfield, as you say, will tend to just vector you onto the approach rather than make you sit in the hold.
I did my instrument training at Oxford - also non-radar - if the conditions were IMC, we would generally have to hold, regardless of training requirements, as they can only have one IFR aircraft in the procedure at a time (hence we used to cancel IFR as soon as we broke cloud on the procedure).
I have also had to hold at Cranfield and Gloucester in IMC for similar reasons.
Any radar-equipped airfield, as you say, will tend to just vector you onto the approach rather than make you sit in the hold.
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FBW
I thought I was - but I'll put it simply for you
YES - I HAVE BEEN ASKED TO FLY A HOLD IN IMC (In a Warrior).
YES - IT IS NECESSARY TO KNOW HOW TO.
If you want to fly in IMC then you should know how to do everything that may be required of you - not just pick the bits that you feel like! If you can't then what are you going to do on the day that you are expected to. Although holds are a throw back to the days of non-radar they are still necessary in certain places (So your question 'has anyone been asked to do them?' will get a 'Yes' answer - which is basically what I gave you).
Bear in mind that holds are not just there as part of an Approach procedure. The likes of Oxford actually stack their IFR arrivals in theirs during that phase of their flying. You might also have to hold over an NDB for weather improvement.
CM
[This message has been edited by Chilli Monster (edited 14 June 2001).]
I thought I was - but I'll put it simply for you
YES - I HAVE BEEN ASKED TO FLY A HOLD IN IMC (In a Warrior).
YES - IT IS NECESSARY TO KNOW HOW TO.
If you want to fly in IMC then you should know how to do everything that may be required of you - not just pick the bits that you feel like! If you can't then what are you going to do on the day that you are expected to. Although holds are a throw back to the days of non-radar they are still necessary in certain places (So your question 'has anyone been asked to do them?' will get a 'Yes' answer - which is basically what I gave you).
Bear in mind that holds are not just there as part of an Approach procedure. The likes of Oxford actually stack their IFR arrivals in theirs during that phase of their flying. You might also have to hold over an NDB for weather improvement.
CM
[This message has been edited by Chilli Monster (edited 14 June 2001).]
Guest
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Chilli Monster..............
Pleased to see that you are catching up, lets have one last try. Here is the question again:
"As a point of interest has anyone ever been asked to take up a NDB hold and procedure? (light aircraft PA28's etc)
Hopefully the highlight will enable you to answer the question (the only question that I asked) in its entirety this time. A simple Yes or No will more than suffice.
Off to the flying club for a beer now.....
Cheers.....
[This message has been edited by Flybywyre (edited 14 June 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Flybywyre (edited 14 June 2001).]
Pleased to see that you are catching up, lets have one last try. Here is the question again:
"As a point of interest has anyone ever been asked to take up a NDB hold and procedure? (light aircraft PA28's etc)
Hopefully the highlight will enable you to answer the question (the only question that I asked) in its entirety this time. A simple Yes or No will more than suffice.
Off to the flying club for a beer now.....
Cheers.....
[This message has been edited by Flybywyre (edited 14 June 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Flybywyre (edited 14 June 2001).]
Guest
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Fly by wire asked if anyone had been asked to take up an |NDB hold.
The answer in my case is yes: in E Anglia there is a distinct shortage of nice accurate VORs and for two of my last four IMC renewals I've been asked to hold at NH at Norwich.
Ok in still Wx but in half a November gale not much fun.
I'm a great believer in GPS but even with my fantastic Garmin 295 there is a bit of satellite shortage consistently over the north Norfolk coast.
However with the help of another ppruner and some accurate map plotting it was not too difficult to work out (just for idle interest and use in VMC only you understand) a bl**dy accurate ILS approach to a tiny bit of grass in the middle of nowhere.
NDB s are cool GPs is cooler
Safe flying
Cusco
The answer in my case is yes: in E Anglia there is a distinct shortage of nice accurate VORs and for two of my last four IMC renewals I've been asked to hold at NH at Norwich.
Ok in still Wx but in half a November gale not much fun.
I'm a great believer in GPS but even with my fantastic Garmin 295 there is a bit of satellite shortage consistently over the north Norfolk coast.
However with the help of another ppruner and some accurate map plotting it was not too difficult to work out (just for idle interest and use in VMC only you understand) a bl**dy accurate ILS approach to a tiny bit of grass in the middle of nowhere.
NDB s are cool GPs is cooler
Safe flying
Cusco
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FBW
My apologies for not answering in the matter that you would have liked - however, as you have requested -
YES
(By the way - it is well known that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit)
CM
[This message has been edited by Chilli Monster (edited 15 June 2001).]
My apologies for not answering in the matter that you would have liked - however, as you have requested -
YES
(By the way - it is well known that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit
)CM
[This message has been edited by Chilli Monster (edited 15 June 2001).]
Guest
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In reply to ROD1, during my training I was told that holds are not essential and won't be tested (they weren't). But I agreed with my Instructor that it would be pretty essential to learn how to do them.
So, why does the IMC not mandate and test them, when from the thread so far it seems as though it might be essential to know how to hold?
So, why does the IMC not mandate and test them, when from the thread so far it seems as though it might be essential to know how to hold?