Yak 50 wheels up at Breighton
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M14P. .. .Yes, that's precisely the sort of routine breaking danger I was wittering on about earlier in the thread.. .. .Interesting question whether not having flaps in, e.g. the 50 (or many Austers if my memory is right) would increase or decrease the likelihood of forgetting the gear. I suspect increase, because you're less likely to forget two things, and remembering one of them would get you back in the groove. Perhaps.
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Ivchenko (we obviously share a common enthusiasm!). .. .I teach 'trigger points' and the recognition of flow breaks when teaching on 'complex' aircraft and therefore I whole heartedly agree. It is difficult, however, when flummoxed so totally to guard against moving a lever one way when you meant to move it another way. It is a peculiar human failing and I offer this example only so that others can add it to their list of things to avoid.. .. .Of course, none of this is meant as a comment on the Yak 50 incident - more a discussion on gear up landings in general.. .. .I have a generally unworkable and rather impractical solution to gear up landings: I feel that if students only ever flew aircraft with retractable gear during training then they would forget to lower it less. I know - silly idea but if the principles of 'complex' operations are learned early enough then the 'reversion to type problem' would include lowering the wheels.
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Maybe flying schools could put gear up / up down levers and lights in all their training airplanes.. .. .Then the studnet would be programmed from the start to select gear in the right sequence???. .. .What does FREDA mean?. .. ....................
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So nice to see the 'experts' speculating on why someone lands gear up. Ok, the guy fu*ked up big time, and I bet he's learnt his lesson, but please, spare us the endless drivel....remember it's a piece of engineering and can be rebuilt.. . . .I dont hear many expert opinions voiced when a hamfisted Cessna 152 pilot wheelbarrows down the runway on the nosewheel, breaks the gear leg off and ends up with the tail high in the air??? Or is that blamed on the "weak undercarriage design"?. .. .Saker, were you actually at Breighton, or listening to the tale in the flying club bar at the time?. .. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> . .. .P.s. Dont know the Pilot, so no favouritism
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Zlin. .. .I'm sorry you thought it was drivel. Please identify the things that I, Cat Driver and others said that were drivel. I considered every post carefully before before I submitted it. Others seem to have done the same.. .. .This was a useful debate before you came along.
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Early in my flying career a very experienced pilot gave me two excellent bits of advice. . .. .1. Work at developing a short final last chance cockpit check. Mixture rich, Prop fine, Gear down. On most light airplanes this is a sraight line across the panel from right to left ( in the case of the YAK series it is back to front on the left console ) . After EVERY landing ask your self " did I do the short final check ". If you did not give yourself a smack upside the head. Habit is very powerfull and if you get in the habit of always doing the last chance check it is much more likely to kick in when you really need it, i.e. when you are rushed or your routine has been broken. . .. .2. NEVER touch any lever or switch on the landing rollout before the airplane is off the runway or at least at taxing speed. This will go a long way to avoiding retracting the gear instead of the flaps or ground looping because your head was in the cockpit.. .. .I use both suggestions religiously and they have definitly worked for me.
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BPF:. .. .Yes we must have a workable check sequence and try never to skip quickly through it.. .. .Flying is a disipline that calls for continunity in your habits i.e. checks.. .. .I try to prioritise my habits and hope to never miss the really dangerous items. Therefore I have two never forget items on take off.. .. .1) Fuel sufficient and selected to proper tank.. .. .2) Controls free.. .. .Most other items on the take off checks will not seriously ruin your day but those two will.. .. .On landing there is only one item that will ruin your day and that is the gear selected to the wrong position for the landing surface.. .. .Regardless of what I am flying when I turn final I "always" ask myself where am I landing and where is my gear?. .. .The habit comes from several hundred years of flying amphibious aircraft, so no matter what the machine is that I am flying I ask that question on every landing. I even do it when flying helicopters, I know it is a redundant question on most helicopters but I do not break the routine.. .. .The main thing is each of us form habits and checks that will ensure ( actually you can never ensure ) or at least give us the best chance not to screw up.. .. .Sh*t there I go again rambling on and on and on.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .. ............. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />
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My sympathy goes out to the pilot and my handle reminds me how important it is to check "down and locked" before landing. (also to test gear up warning horn if possible.). .. .We should all remember that this has been done on many sizes of aeroplanes and is a potential trap for all of us when the workload is high and we are distracted.. .. .I was taught "PUFFA" as a short final check.... .. .P = prop full increase. .. .U = undercarriage down and locked. .. .F = fuel boost pump on. .. .F = flaps set for landing. .. .A = Altimeter set (more IFR than VFR, but good pradctice in the clear). . . . <small>[ 19 March 2002, 04:49: Message edited by: Final 3 Greens ]</small>
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Zlin. .. .A bit glib old chap - wrong side of bed today.. .. .I actually tried to distance myself from pontificating about the caauses of a particular accident but seeing aircraft land wheels up does annoy me a little because it's just a shame.. .. .I considered banging on about how many accident reports are snapped off nosewheels but felt it was way 'off topic'. .. .If the AAIB thought like you then the reports would read as follows (and therefore have no merit whatsoever). .. ."Flying chappie got it wrong and screwed the pooch.. .. .Bet he won't do that again!. .. .I don't care what the causes or possible cures are because techie things can be fixed. .. .Aren't I clever?". .. .If you want to sabotage the dissemenation of useful tips and hints and destroy a sensible and active debate then may I respectfully ask you to go and p*ss in somebody else's pool?. .. .Ta!
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From the start, my instructor has taught the prelanding checks (on a C152) with the first element "undercarriage down and locked" to be visually checked.. .. .I thought this was overdoing it to begin with - bearing in mind that if a check reveals a C152 undercarriage to NOT be down and locked there ain't much that you can do about it when airbourne! - but I now salute his wisdom absolutely!. .. .Hersh
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Christ Almighty!. .. .I can only hope that my fellow pilot's won't be as scathing if, or when, I f**k something up.. .. .My sympathies to the pilot.. .. .TW
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TW. .. .Don't think most of us were being scathing - a couple were, which is a shame, but otherwise the debate is constructive and interesting because surely most GA pilots who fly retractables worry about doing this themselves one day, and there have been some helpful comments about how not to.. .. .Anyway, speaking as the prat who drove a Yak 50 into a car parked on the taxiway whilst taxiing out for an airshow last year, I have nothing but sympathy for the chap at Breighton. And two members of the team I used to fly with - who are supposed to be quite good - have landed Yaks wheels up, so it definitly ain't a beginners thing.. .. .24 hour hours without drivel is like a day without sunshine, don't you think?
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3 Green:. .. .SSShhh, don't tell anyone but I was exaggerating by several years.. .. .Actually the first boat I flew was a Sea Bee in 1954 a great airplane if a little underpowered as origional. . .. .It is interesting reading all these posts, there is a lot of good advice to be found here and generally everyone are quite civil.. .. .And for sure we must remember to feel for the poor guy that damaged his Yak. But for the grace of God go I ( With a little help from disiplined checks ) But hell "anyone" can do it.. .................. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />
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During multi training, I couldn't understand why the usual combination of power and flap was not giving a sensible speed and rate of descent on base and final. I carried on down reducing the power all the time, until at 400 feet agl the penny dropped. The gear was up. Why? Because I was distracted on downwind because the instructor had unscrewed one of the u/c warning lights, so I only had two greens. Two or three minutes away from the circuit to change the bulb followed by a base join, left me raising the gear instead of lowering it. Very easily done!. .. .My 'routine' failed me and I had no back up. Ever since then I have checked 'reds, blues, greens' on short final. But I am now very concious of what can happen if you're distracted, and eg unexpected r/t at the wrong time can be really dangerous!. .. .90 percent of my flying is fixed gear and 10 percent retractable so surely this means extra care is needed.
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Aha, Hersh, that'll be the sought after fish-spotting variant of the Cessna 152 with the glass floor then....or do you just hang off the wing struts on short final to check out the wheely bits?
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FNG - ya sarky get... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> . .. .You can see the L/H gear from the L/H seat fine from inside the cockpit. Those bad boys stick out like a pair of big lugholes.. .. .Granted I can't see the R/H gear from the L/H seat, but like I said - if it ain't locked, down or there you're f**ked already n'est pas?. .. .I think the intention is to build habit so I look for the greens/reds panel when I get to R/C kit.. .. .Hersh. .. .PS. Aerobats are fine for spotting fish when inverted <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />