where should i do my ppl?
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Good point Query!. .. .Next time I fly into KLAX I will be sure to ask the Cpt and F/O where they did their training, there is no point recklessly putting our lives in danger is there? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />
The 'usual 10 hours' to equip US-trained PPLs to fly in the UK comes from a CAA source.. .. .Some US-trained pilots need a quick 'UK orientation' and possibly an aircraft conversion check, others need almost totally retraining - I've encountered both ends of the spectrum on this!. .. .If you want to train for a JAR/FCL PPL overseas - just be aware of the possible problems when you get home.
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BEagle - I would be very interested if you could post a link or details of how to obtain this CAA document. It would be interesting to see how they collated their data to come up with what I presume is an average time of 10hours....
'CAA source' is a person, not a document. He also said that this supplementary UK training was one reason why the CAA would not pursue a 'safety case' against certain US practices. . .. .Basically no-one will rent you an aircraft if you don't pass their club acceptance check whether you've been trained by a UK, US or Martian organisation; it's nothing to do with financial greed on behalf of the clubs, it's all down to meeting their standards.
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Beagle,. .. .Are you sure the CAA are not refering to an FAA Licenced pilot? Ok, if you train for your FAA PPL then all sorts of rules and regs, like Air Law etc will be slightly different, and you will need to get up to scratch on the JAA stuff. However, a JAA trained Pilot in the US has been taught, and has proven that they understand the JAA syllabus (by passing the exams), and as we all know the laws of physics don't change between the USA and Europe. . .. .Fair enough, if a PPL has learned in a C152 and then want to incorporate PA-28 (for example)difference training as part of their UK checkout, then it will take longer than the 1 hr dual check, but this is the same regardless of where you trained.. .. .Remember it works both ways though. If you want to go on and fly in the USA later on (highly recommend it, due to cost and fun experience), I would recommend the JAA PPL in the US, then you get the best of both worlds. . .. .Rgds. .EA
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EnglishAl:. .I think the CAA '10 hours' refers to the amount of flying time before these 'trained in the US' pilots accept landing fees as a normal part of flying.. .(They couldn't mean 10 hours extra for new JAR-PPL holders coming from the US as they are the ones who approve standards in the schools and instructors out there.... could they?)
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BEagle - Aha , now we are getting to the bottom of it! Your 'CAA source' is an invidiuals opionion!!! I found out on Wednesday, by just chatting, that one of the engineering contractors I am managing is an Instructor/Examiner and this was one of issues we discussed. He hasn't had a problem with US trained pilots, he agreed that a couple of hours is generally enough, as you say a club check flight. If we are going to take one individuals opinion then it seems they contradict one another. If you, as Englishal has stated, are talking about FAA trained pilots then I can see your point as regards air law, etc. . .. .To see blanket statements such as those by WWW which basically don't hold water but also reflect on themselves in a bad light. I am quite happy to accept there are schools in the US which are not so good, just as there are some not so good in the UK. I fly in both countries so I am not providing a one sided argument, I would be worried if a club offered me an aircraft without a checkflight first! The club I use in the US requires a checkflight if you have not flown for a month or aircraft type for same period.. .. .Maybe if you see WWW you could ask him why when ever he is asked directly about his experinences in the US he refuses to answer - he seems to be chastising the area without having even been there! It would be like me critising the SA schools - as I have never been there either, although if all goes to plan I hope to get out towards the end of this year and give them a try.. .. .US instructors have problems with UK trained pilots with regard to airlaw, RT, etc, but they have a much more practical view on the situation before making a judgement on ability, I have seen UK trained pilots getting into diffulty in the US so is not exactly one sided!. .. .I hope now you can see which angle I am coming from and trust that when statements such as this are made, especially by moderators, they will be clarified. I am sure out US GA/professional friends would not like to be told that they are cr@p pilots!!!
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BEagle is not talking crap and it's nothing to do with prejudice, nor is it a blanket statement that applies to all US trained pilots as some of the more vociferous amongst you seem to be bent on implying. The fact is that some people come back from America with a PPL on paper but (and I am choosing my words carefully here) THEY DO NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO SAFELY TAKEOFF, FLY STRAIGHT AND LEVEL AND THEN LAND AN AIRCRAFT. It is nothing to do with the individual's ability because after a few hours of tuition (ten would be a reasonable estimate) the two people that I came across were just fine.. .When I first started instructing the CFI of the club gave me a few tips - things to watch out for etc. and one of the things he said was 'If someone comes to you for a checkout and they've trained in America, don't assume they'll be OK after a quick trip - be on your guard'. At the time I thought he was being a bit biased but, by Christ I remembered his words a couple of years later when such a situation arose. It is nonsense to suggest that anything other than a minority of US trained pilots are like this but until you have been an instructor and come across one I'm afraid you just would not believe it.. .America's a great place to fly and has a much better attitude to aviation in general than the UK but one or two of their flying schools are really, really bo11ocks <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" />. . . . <small>[ 15 March 2002, 18:44: Message edited by: DB6 ]</small>
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I am hesitant to post to this thread as people seem to be so agressive if someone writes something they don't agree with. However, I would like to help people who are considering training in the US on grounds of cost. I have been an instructor for some years in the UK and have also flown quite a bit in the US. I am only basing my observations/advice on my own experience. The way that navigation is taught in the US is usually different from the UK dead reckoning method-it is a lot easier to follow roads and hop from point to point in many parts of the USA. Many students who have learnt there find it very difficult to find their way around in the UK where fields and villages can be much closer together. Airspace, particularly in the southeast can also be hard to manouver and RT here needs to be a lot more disciplined. Many US airfields fly racetrack circuits, joins are different and instructors often teach students to land half way along the enormous tarmac runways which are common. I find that pilots have often developed a habit of setting up approach configuration downwind then "dragging" the final approach. I don't need flying hours and encourage pilots on check to log flights P1 if I don't touch the controls - but it is true that many people returning with licences gained solely in the US need to do a fair number of dual flights before they are cleared for PPL hire at our club. What I did myself, many years ago, and have advised my own students to do is to complete initial training here and then go to the US to build hours and do type conversions. There is a lot of flying to be done and fun to be had. If anyone does decide to do ab initio in the US then choose a reputable school and get personal recommendations. Remember that there is no rush and take as much time as you need - everyone is different. Most of all - enjoy it, stay safe, don't give up.
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DB6 - Finally something we really agree on. . .Titch - very well put, if I may say so. . .. .I did some of my ppl training in the US and appreciate some of the differences (which become more significant to an inexperienced pilot). In fact yesterday I had en e-mail from a friend who as just returned from Arizona and he reminded me of a lot of the things I now take for granted. I have also heard many stories of pilots training at 'certain' schools in the US who had a long way to go to become competent pilots. . .. .Yes the views expressed here are generalisations and there will always be exceptions. However I believe the expereinces that these instructors and others tell of are very real. . .. .I would still encourage students to do some (probably not all) of their training in the US. But the same rules apply as for any training - research well, choose carefully and be aware of the pros and pitfalls of your decision and never forget its always a lot of money which you are going to part with!
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Sorry I haven't read most of the posts, 'cause I don't want to get bogged down on the US vs UK issue.. .. .Back to the point, try Sheffield Aero Club at Netherthorpe (by Worksop) and close to Rotherham. As it is a club in the true sense of the word the prices they offer are very good, and I know a few people who trained there and loved it!
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I did say earlier that I agree there are bad flight schools - just as there are in the UK. I have watched UK trained pilots do $15000 worth of damage to an aircraft, I have heard them infringe airspace, not maintain assigned altitudes under IFR, to name a few.. .. .Does this mean that all our schools are cr@p? No of course it does'nt!!!. .. .If you have students come back from the US who are frankly unfit then name and shame the school so others will know, otherwise blanket slagging off of the FAA system won't really gain you much respect.
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Ok, no more of this US vs UK please. Try and give the guy a decent answer, if you can't then don't bother.. .If someone wants to start one up about comparing flying in the UK and abroad then do so, do not use this thread to do it on.. . . . <small>[ 18 March 2002, 16:08: Message edited by: Big Red ' L ' ]</small>
