Shares in aircraft
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Shares in aircraft
I am considering trying to buy a share in an aircraft as a means to cheaper hour building in the UK.. .Can anyone explain the costs... .There is a share at my club at the mo it is as follows;. .£15 per hour wet. .£50 per month. .£2000 share cost(1/10th)
Does the "Wet" cost mean £15 per hour including fuel?. .Apologies if I am asking the obvious but I would appreciate any assistance.
Does the "Wet" cost mean £15 per hour including fuel?. .Apologies if I am asking the obvious but I would appreciate any assistance.
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That's right - it includes fuel.
Fairly near to you, Barton has traditionally had 2 or 3 group aircraft used by hour builders. They generally work very well but the winter weather does have an effect on how much you can do. The soft green sward of Barton does tend to suffer but the overall economics are such that it is still very worthwhile.
Over the years I've had shares in 3 Barton based aircraft and it worked very well for me - a strongly recommended method of gaining hours in European airspace at American prices.
There is also the psychological aspect. Gaining hours in an aircraft you have a financial interest in makes most people approach flying in a subtley different way compared to just hiring an anonymous trainer.
Consider how people treat a hire car compared to their own................
Rob Lloyd
Fairly near to you, Barton has traditionally had 2 or 3 group aircraft used by hour builders. They generally work very well but the winter weather does have an effect on how much you can do. The soft green sward of Barton does tend to suffer but the overall economics are such that it is still very worthwhile.
Over the years I've had shares in 3 Barton based aircraft and it worked very well for me - a strongly recommended method of gaining hours in European airspace at American prices.
There is also the psychological aspect. Gaining hours in an aircraft you have a financial interest in makes most people approach flying in a subtley different way compared to just hiring an anonymous trainer.
Consider how people treat a hire car compared to their own................
Rob Lloyd
This is standard for most syndicates, to quote these three figures. I'm in a PA-28 syndicate at £2,500, £35/mth, £48/hr wet, what you quote sounds about right for something like a 150.
G
G
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Sorry but £15 per hour WET doesn't sound nearly enough to me.
A Cessna 150 might burn about 6 USG per hour, which is about 28 ish litres. Cheap avgas might cost 80p per litre so that's £22 before you start.
Sorry, no calculator, perf figures or fuel price guide with me but I would think this is in the right ball park. To this price you would want to add some money per hour so as to penalise those that fly the aircraft most to build up a maintainqnce fund), perhaps about £15 per hour.
It sounds like a typo to me, I would expect it to be £15 DRY, so expect to pay £37 wet, which is still a bargain! (in my group I pay about £130 per hour wet, but thats my fault for enjoying flying upside down!)
[ 04 February 2002: Message edited by: Sink Rate ]</p>
A Cessna 150 might burn about 6 USG per hour, which is about 28 ish litres. Cheap avgas might cost 80p per litre so that's £22 before you start.
Sorry, no calculator, perf figures or fuel price guide with me but I would think this is in the right ball park. To this price you would want to add some money per hour so as to penalise those that fly the aircraft most to build up a maintainqnce fund), perhaps about £15 per hour.
It sounds like a typo to me, I would expect it to be £15 DRY, so expect to pay £37 wet, which is still a bargain! (in my group I pay about £130 per hour wet, but thats my fault for enjoying flying upside down!)
[ 04 February 2002: Message edited by: Sink Rate ]</p>
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To add some more figures:
Our group (pfa two-seater) figures are: Share- £2500 (there are six in the group), monthly- £28 (covers insurance, hangarage, radio licence, paperwork etc.) Hourly- £9 per hour dry charged on airbourne time only. Each member buys their own Avgas and leaves the tank brim full after flying. Fuel burn is 18 litres per hour so you can work out the economics. The group is sufficiently well run for us to have been able to have the engine zero-timed last year !
With a well-run group your flying time is limited by the time you have available, not the cost.
Our group (pfa two-seater) figures are: Share- £2500 (there are six in the group), monthly- £28 (covers insurance, hangarage, radio licence, paperwork etc.) Hourly- £9 per hour dry charged on airbourne time only. Each member buys their own Avgas and leaves the tank brim full after flying. Fuel burn is 18 litres per hour so you can work out the economics. The group is sufficiently well run for us to have been able to have the engine zero-timed last year !
With a well-run group your flying time is limited by the time you have available, not the cost.
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Mine cost £1300 for 1/20th share,
£25 a month,
£35 an hour wet.
. .£15 an hour sounds too cheap and I smell a rat.
You may find out that before long you will have to dig into your pocket for a whip round to pay for unforeseen bills like engine refurbs where as our group is already saving for the next engine overhaul expected in 3-4 years time.
PPRuNe Towers, as a matter of interest, what was the reg of the planes you had shares in??
I have a share in G-BBKY. Anybody else who now flies professionally ever flown this aircraft?
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£25 a month,
£35 an hour wet.
. .£15 an hour sounds too cheap and I smell a rat.
You may find out that before long you will have to dig into your pocket for a whip round to pay for unforeseen bills like engine refurbs where as our group is already saving for the next engine overhaul expected in 3-4 years time.
PPRuNe Towers, as a matter of interest, what was the reg of the planes you had shares in??
I have a share in G-BBKY. Anybody else who now flies professionally ever flown this aircraft?
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Currymonster,. .For comparison, a small US club.. .I have a 1/4 share in C172 ($7000) . .We charge ourselves $15.00 pr hour dry, and always leave the aircraft full of fuel, and clean.. .Hanger fees are $40.00 pr month.. .One owner snow bird's it to Texas for the winter, so the remaining 3 get plenty of winter flying, enjoying the very cold but very smooth air with increadable visability.(He still pays his hangar dues). .I must say 15 pounds an hour wet sounds far too cheap. 15 pounds an hour dry, would be more like the going rate. Last time I rented in the UK, it cost me over 100 pounds an hour for a C182.. .White Bear.
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EGCC, the aircraft I had shares in over the years at Barton were:
G-AYGA G-BEZZ and G-AYEH all of which were Jodels.
Presently have a share in a strip based Aeronca Cheif , G-AKTK, down here at Towers South.
An amazing number of professional pilots have gained hours in your present steed
Rob Lloyd
G-AYGA G-BEZZ and G-AYEH all of which were Jodels.
Presently have a share in a strip based Aeronca Cheif , G-AKTK, down here at Towers South.
An amazing number of professional pilots have gained hours in your present steed
Rob Lloyd
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My old man has a share in a 1973 C182 - 1/5th I think will get some costs if you're interested Currymonster...
(£15/hr wet is a bargain - the Hunter T.8 we have is around £800/hr - Urk! <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> )
Aq
(£15/hr wet is a bargain - the Hunter T.8 we have is around £800/hr - Urk! <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> )
Aq
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MUST be a dry rate.
What about oil? 50 hour check? engine fund. My Robin DR400/180 works out at £84/hr -mind you, you can do 150 statute miles in that hour! Seems high, yes , but we have NEVER had to dig into our back pockets for additional work required. I know many, many groups that have had to do that.
Fuel £50/hr; engine fund £10/hr; oil £5 hour; rest is contribution to checks.
So, beware!!
DOC. .<a href="http://www.gbrnu.co.uk" target="_blank">www.gbrnu.co.uk</a>
What about oil? 50 hour check? engine fund. My Robin DR400/180 works out at £84/hr -mind you, you can do 150 statute miles in that hour! Seems high, yes , but we have NEVER had to dig into our back pockets for additional work required. I know many, many groups that have had to do that.
Fuel £50/hr; engine fund £10/hr; oil £5 hour; rest is contribution to checks.
So, beware!!
DOC. .<a href="http://www.gbrnu.co.uk" target="_blank">www.gbrnu.co.uk</a>
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My share cost £3500, other charges are:. .£25 Monthly plus a Hourly Rate (Wet) of £24
These costs are barely covering our fixed overheads because we're not using the aircraft enough, but I am making great strides towards correcting this (oh, the sacrifice!) - if only the weather was better, our bank balance would be as well.
PFA Permit a/c, 4 People in Group. We each have the use of the a/c for a week at a time.
(edited for spelling)
[ 08 February 2002: Message edited by: tacpot ]</p>
These costs are barely covering our fixed overheads because we're not using the aircraft enough, but I am making great strides towards correcting this (oh, the sacrifice!) - if only the weather was better, our bank balance would be as well.
PFA Permit a/c, 4 People in Group. We each have the use of the a/c for a week at a time.
(edited for spelling)
[ 08 February 2002: Message edited by: tacpot ]</p>
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Just to give you a quick story,
14 months ago our engine packed up after clocking up 2800 hours.
It just so happens to be at the same time as an annual check.
Turns out that the engine crank case had a crack in it so that piece had to go. .to the USA for welding.
When we got it back, we received a bill for £18,400, £4,000 for the annual . .and £14,000 for the engine refurb.
The only thing missing was Dick Turpins mask.
Luckily we already had £14,000 in the engine fund so a wip round . .between 20 of us was no big deal.
So far the new engine has done about 600 hours and we've already. .saved £4000 towards the next one
Beware that the group may sound cheap but are they saving money to one side for. .expensive jobs????? <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
14 months ago our engine packed up after clocking up 2800 hours.
It just so happens to be at the same time as an annual check.
Turns out that the engine crank case had a crack in it so that piece had to go. .to the USA for welding.
When we got it back, we received a bill for £18,400, £4,000 for the annual . .and £14,000 for the engine refurb.
The only thing missing was Dick Turpins mask.
Luckily we already had £14,000 in the engine fund so a wip round . .between 20 of us was no big deal.
So far the new engine has done about 600 hours and we've already. .saved £4000 towards the next one
Beware that the group may sound cheap but are they saving money to one side for. .expensive jobs????? <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
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tacpot,
You would be as well trying to get 20 in your group, putting your hourly rate upto £30-£35 an hour and instead of each member having the plane for a week, have a proper booking diary system.
We have 1hour 30 min slots from 09:00, when the airfield opens, until last landings.
During the week Mon - Friday, we are aloud to book the plane all day if we wish and that counts as one booking. We can have 2 advanced week bookings, ie book it for all day Monday and Tues
At weekends, in summer we are able to book 2 slots together, ie 09:00 -12:00, or 10:30 - 13:30, or 12:00 - 15:00 and so on. During winter we reduce that down to 1 slot because of less daylight and some members in the group work 9-5 Mon - Fri and are only able to fly at weekends.
Cannot see the point of having a plane and not having it flying, bringing money into the group to pay for it self.
Even though the is 20 in our group, I manage to clock up the most hours in it last year 81 hours I think it was.
Sorry for any spelling errors <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
[ 08 February 2002: Message edited by: EGCC4284 ]
[ 08 February 2002: Message edited by: EGCC4284 ]</p>
You would be as well trying to get 20 in your group, putting your hourly rate upto £30-£35 an hour and instead of each member having the plane for a week, have a proper booking diary system.
We have 1hour 30 min slots from 09:00, when the airfield opens, until last landings.
During the week Mon - Friday, we are aloud to book the plane all day if we wish and that counts as one booking. We can have 2 advanced week bookings, ie book it for all day Monday and Tues
At weekends, in summer we are able to book 2 slots together, ie 09:00 -12:00, or 10:30 - 13:30, or 12:00 - 15:00 and so on. During winter we reduce that down to 1 slot because of less daylight and some members in the group work 9-5 Mon - Fri and are only able to fly at weekends.
Cannot see the point of having a plane and not having it flying, bringing money into the group to pay for it self.
Even though the is 20 in our group, I manage to clock up the most hours in it last year 81 hours I think it was.
Sorry for any spelling errors <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
[ 08 February 2002: Message edited by: EGCC4284 ]
[ 08 February 2002: Message edited by: EGCC4284 ]</p>
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EGCC4284 - I guess we'll see how thing go over the summer. We were set into our particular method of operating by the original owner of the a/c, when he sold three share in it to create the group. I bought the owner out and I guess we haven't got around to thinking whether the way we operate it is the best way for us and the aircraft.
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EGCC4284
I think you've hit the nail on the head and my point entirely!! 2800 hours! On condition since 2000? What was the decision at 2800 to replace? Were you taking oil samples at 50 hours? Asking coz we're upto about 1600hours, so in a year or two we go 'on condition'.
Rgds. .DOC
I think you've hit the nail on the head and my point entirely!! 2800 hours! On condition since 2000? What was the decision at 2800 to replace? Were you taking oil samples at 50 hours? Asking coz we're upto about 1600hours, so in a year or two we go 'on condition'.
Rgds. .DOC
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DOC.400,
I turned up one Saturday morning to go flying . .and when I went to check the oil contents of the engine, I noticed that the oil filler cap was lose and the whole engine compartment was covered in oil.
Either the previous guy did not put the cap on properly or it vibrated lose which is a quite common occurrence I believe.
I got maintenance to have a look and they suggested that they wash the engine area . .and all down the side of the plane which was covered in oil.
Once that was done, I ran the engine so as to simulate I was flying,ie, full power for two to three minutes and then cruise power for ten minutes.
Engineers then inspected it again to reveal oil pissing out of the engine breather pipe, which suggested that the engine sump was building up pressure, possibly from piston rings being sh@@@d.
Previous to this, we had a compression check done at every 50 hours, not so sure about the oil sampling.
We were quite pleased, first of all because this happened while the plane was on the ground, . .and, secondly, we had got 2800 hours out of it, 800 more than planned.
Half the battle with shared aircraft groups is if you've got somebody who is quite. .interested in the groups future to run it, and secondly if all the guys/girls in group. .respect other members and are pleasant to each other.
<img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
Happy landings.
I turned up one Saturday morning to go flying . .and when I went to check the oil contents of the engine, I noticed that the oil filler cap was lose and the whole engine compartment was covered in oil.
Either the previous guy did not put the cap on properly or it vibrated lose which is a quite common occurrence I believe.
I got maintenance to have a look and they suggested that they wash the engine area . .and all down the side of the plane which was covered in oil.
Once that was done, I ran the engine so as to simulate I was flying,ie, full power for two to three minutes and then cruise power for ten minutes.
Engineers then inspected it again to reveal oil pissing out of the engine breather pipe, which suggested that the engine sump was building up pressure, possibly from piston rings being sh@@@d.
Previous to this, we had a compression check done at every 50 hours, not so sure about the oil sampling.
We were quite pleased, first of all because this happened while the plane was on the ground, . .and, secondly, we had got 2800 hours out of it, 800 more than planned.
Half the battle with shared aircraft groups is if you've got somebody who is quite. .interested in the groups future to run it, and secondly if all the guys/girls in group. .respect other members and are pleasant to each other.
<img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
Happy landings.