RAF2000 - anyone flown one ?
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Khalid Aziz has one G-SAYS which he built and flys from Popham occaisonally. Subaru engine.
His email is [email protected]
His email is [email protected]
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A few more comments on the RAF.
Go to this site and click on the title on the top of the first page, that will take you to the forums where there will be enough reading on the RAF to keep you busy for years.
www.rotaryforum.com/index.php
I was involved with RAF in 1991 when they first started, the plan was to add the Gyro to my flight training school as I already had both airplanes and helicopters. ( R22 on floats Whirly... ) anyhow to make this short, I was concerned about the pitch instability and the factory refused to even add a HS, so we parted company very quickly...to this day they still refuse to improve their design despite many deaths due to the thing bunting over in flight.
I recommend Roger Savage very highly, he in my opinion is the guy to see on that island you guys share with many illegal immigrants.
Have a good look at the picture of that green RAF and note the lack of a horizontal stabalizer and how weird that looks, nevermind the need for one.....then go see how many flying machines lack a H.S...you can start with birds last time I saw one it had a big H.S. and whoever designed it must have put a tail on e'm for good reason....
...or you could pull the feathers off a set of darts and see what happens to how the dart flys....
At your service with advice to keep you alive forever.....
Chuck E.
Go to this site and click on the title on the top of the first page, that will take you to the forums where there will be enough reading on the RAF to keep you busy for years.
www.rotaryforum.com/index.php
I was involved with RAF in 1991 when they first started, the plan was to add the Gyro to my flight training school as I already had both airplanes and helicopters. ( R22 on floats Whirly... ) anyhow to make this short, I was concerned about the pitch instability and the factory refused to even add a HS, so we parted company very quickly...to this day they still refuse to improve their design despite many deaths due to the thing bunting over in flight.
I recommend Roger Savage very highly, he in my opinion is the guy to see on that island you guys share with many illegal immigrants.
Have a good look at the picture of that green RAF and note the lack of a horizontal stabalizer and how weird that looks, nevermind the need for one.....then go see how many flying machines lack a H.S...you can start with birds last time I saw one it had a big H.S. and whoever designed it must have put a tail on e'm for good reason....
...or you could pull the feathers off a set of darts and see what happens to how the dart flys....
At your service with advice to keep you alive forever.....
Chuck E.
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I attended a CAA safety evening recently, and the nice CAA man presented stats that showed gyros as a breed kill about (as I recall) 15 times more pilots than fixed wing, per hour flown. If you believe that some gyros are far safer than others (the Magni VPM is one that springs to mind) and adjust the risk for the worst types accordingly, then the chances of premature topping are unacceptably high IMHO.
Stick to the knitting!
Stick to the knitting!
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The problem with flying gyros is there are not enough instructors that understand gyroplane stability.
A properly designed gyroplane is safer and easier to learn to fly with proper instruction than either an airplane or a helicopter.
read this link.
www.littlewingautogyro.com/index.html
It is all about lack of information, and yes the Magni is another very safe design.
Chuck E.
A properly designed gyroplane is safer and easier to learn to fly with proper instruction than either an airplane or a helicopter.
read this link.
www.littlewingautogyro.com/index.html
It is all about lack of information, and yes the Magni is another very safe design.
Chuck E.
One day.... sigh! Join Date: Oct 2003
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RAF2000
Chuck, Thanks for that!
I have spoken to Roger Savage by e-mail and he has agreed to do my training on the machine if I buy it.
I do know that he is not a great lover of it but have not had the chance to talk to him in person with regards to this.
I have also posted a thread on Rotorhead forum and I am sure that you can imagine the response that I got.
No one seems to have anything good to say about the RAF2000 at all.
Not having flown one or in one yet I can't even pass comment or offer an opinion at all.
Can't believe that it's the lethal death trap that everyone seems to be making out but there again I fully appreciate that there is no smoke without fire!
Were you based around Carlisle at any time??
Cheers
R
I have spoken to Roger Savage by e-mail and he has agreed to do my training on the machine if I buy it.
I do know that he is not a great lover of it but have not had the chance to talk to him in person with regards to this.
I have also posted a thread on Rotorhead forum and I am sure that you can imagine the response that I got.
No one seems to have anything good to say about the RAF2000 at all.
Not having flown one or in one yet I can't even pass comment or offer an opinion at all.
Can't believe that it's the lethal death trap that everyone seems to be making out but there again I fully appreciate that there is no smoke without fire!
Were you based around Carlisle at any time??
Cheers
R
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posted 20th April 2005 17:09
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I've always wanted to fly a gyro ... and that one really looks great Chuck! One day.... sigh!
SS
...........................................................
We should try and do everything that we yearn for...because tomorrow may never come..
Chuck E.
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I've always wanted to fly a gyro ... and that one really looks great Chuck! One day.... sigh!
SS
...........................................................
We should try and do everything that we yearn for...because tomorrow may never come..
Chuck E.
The Original Whirly
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I'm not convinced that the CAA stats with respect to gyros are statistically significant...there aren't enough of the breed around to draw any conclusions, IMHO. I prefer to trust Chuck's opinion. 
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For those of you that would like to read some factual information you ought to contact Dr. Stuart Houston at the U. of Glasgow. He has conducted considerable research on gyroplane stability in general and the RAF-2000 in particular.
Me I am only a lowly mechanic / pilot and I would rather take my advice from people educated in the art of science and mathematics, hell I'm barely literate.
Chuck
Me I am only a lowly mechanic / pilot and I would rather take my advice from people educated in the art of science and mathematics, hell I'm barely literate.
Chuck
Ich bin ein Prooner.
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Slightly digressing from the thread a moment, Shortstripper mentioned John "PeeWee" Judge's accident. It was at Farnborough, but I can't remember the year.
It was the first airshow I had been able to persuade my wife to go to, in an effort to win her over to "Aren't aeroplanes brill?".
PeeWee gave a spirited display, and came from the western end of the airfield, at about 30ft. or so as I recall, rising and decending fairly rapidly as he flew along.
Unfortunately, the rotor hit the top of the tail fin with the tragic results we all know. It happened directly in front of us, and could not have been more graphic. R.I.P.
It was the first airshow I had been able to persuade my wife to go to, in an effort to win her over to "Aren't aeroplanes brill?".
PeeWee gave a spirited display, and came from the western end of the airfield, at about 30ft. or so as I recall, rising and decending fairly rapidly as he flew along.
Unfortunately, the rotor hit the top of the tail fin with the tragic results we all know. It happened directly in front of us, and could not have been more graphic. R.I.P.
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Roxy wrote:
" Can't believe that it's the lethal death trap that everyone seems to be making out but there again I fully appreciate that there is no smoke without fire!
Were you based around Carlisle at any time?? "
....................................
Roxy :
Before you fly any aircraft it is wise to first fully explore the history and record of that aircraft.
I normally will not make a definitave statement regarding any make or model of aircraft. However in the case of the RAF 2000 I will caution you about flying any RAF 2000 as configured from the factory because they are a very, very dangerous design and have killed some high time helicopter pilots and high time airplane pilots.
Would you fly a Cessna 172 with the C of G so far out of limits rearward that recovery from a spin would be impossible?
The problem with the RAF 2000 and its high thrustline is only different in that you would not have the same time left to live once the upset occurs, in the Cessna you would be watching the earth revolve as you spin in. In the RAF if it bunts over you die real fast as the rotor destroys the tail and it just snaps end over end...so I guess if you are going to choose how to die the RAF would be the choice as it will be quick.
Strange that any regulating body will not allow you to add an H.S. to a known design defect, it is not a cure all but will dampen pitch excursions in the RAF.
No I have only been in Carlisle once to visit Roger Savage, I was stuck in London waiting for a renewal of my visa for Saudi Arabia and rented a car and drove up.
Chuck E.
" Can't believe that it's the lethal death trap that everyone seems to be making out but there again I fully appreciate that there is no smoke without fire!
Were you based around Carlisle at any time?? "
....................................
Roxy :
Before you fly any aircraft it is wise to first fully explore the history and record of that aircraft.
I normally will not make a definitave statement regarding any make or model of aircraft. However in the case of the RAF 2000 I will caution you about flying any RAF 2000 as configured from the factory because they are a very, very dangerous design and have killed some high time helicopter pilots and high time airplane pilots.
Would you fly a Cessna 172 with the C of G so far out of limits rearward that recovery from a spin would be impossible?
The problem with the RAF 2000 and its high thrustline is only different in that you would not have the same time left to live once the upset occurs, in the Cessna you would be watching the earth revolve as you spin in. In the RAF if it bunts over you die real fast as the rotor destroys the tail and it just snaps end over end...so I guess if you are going to choose how to die the RAF would be the choice as it will be quick.
Strange that any regulating body will not allow you to add an H.S. to a known design defect, it is not a cure all but will dampen pitch excursions in the RAF.
No I have only been in Carlisle once to visit Roger Savage, I was stuck in London waiting for a renewal of my visa for Saudi Arabia and rented a car and drove up.
Chuck E.
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Roxy,
Forgive me if I have mis-understood but I read your last post as saying that despite all that you have read on this Forum, you are still going to go ahead and buy a 2000.
If this is the case, please go and see a psychiatrist and try to sort out where this death wish of yours comes from.
If you are poor, like most of us, go buy a Flexwing Microlight. Same sort of performance and less noise than a Gyro. Folds up just about as small.
If you are rich, go buy a helicopter.
Mike W
Have you never noticed that the only place you see gyros is at airshows and you never see one transiting overhead. I've seen more powered parachutes in the air than gyros.
Forgive me if I have mis-understood but I read your last post as saying that despite all that you have read on this Forum, you are still going to go ahead and buy a 2000.
If this is the case, please go and see a psychiatrist and try to sort out where this death wish of yours comes from.
If you are poor, like most of us, go buy a Flexwing Microlight. Same sort of performance and less noise than a Gyro. Folds up just about as small.
If you are rich, go buy a helicopter.
Mike W
Have you never noticed that the only place you see gyros is at airshows and you never see one transiting overhead. I've seen more powered parachutes in the air than gyros.
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Just to reconfirm something, a properly designed gyro is just about the most pleasant and fun flying machine you can get. Also with proper training they are very safe.
For what ever it is worth I have been flying helicopters since 1965 and gyroplanes since 1991, and am the holder of U.S Commercial Gyroplane Pilot License and have flown several different makes of gyros.
If I ever retire from this damn flying business I plan on rebuilding my RAF 2000 to a centerline thrust with proper tail feathers on it, then I want to build a Little Wing....
Go get a ride with Roger Savage in his Magni and if you are not really impressed I'll be very suprised.
Chuck.
For what ever it is worth I have been flying helicopters since 1965 and gyroplanes since 1991, and am the holder of U.S Commercial Gyroplane Pilot License and have flown several different makes of gyros.
If I ever retire from this damn flying business I plan on rebuilding my RAF 2000 to a centerline thrust with proper tail feathers on it, then I want to build a Little Wing....
Go get a ride with Roger Savage in his Magni and if you are not really impressed I'll be very suprised.
Chuck.
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Gyros
By all means buy a gyro and have fun.
But please, not a standard RAF.
Standard Raf = 18 dead.
Raf with stabiliser = 1 dead. (and we're not sure how he managed
to do it)
Prime funeral candidates are high-time fixed-wing pilots with
low gyro-time.
As in Pee-Wee Judge et al, including the previously referred
accident to Gerry French's machine, the PIC was a high-time
ATPL with low gyro-time, not a gyro instructor.
You cannot install a stabiliser in the UK, courtesy of Section T
structural requirements.
Please go for a Magni, or an ELA (when it gets past Section T).
Or anything else that is legal in the U.K.
Chuck knows what he's talking about.
R22 pilots will understand the problems associated with
low/zero-G.
High-thrustline gyros are worse than that.
Properly configured/stabilised gyros are bloody marvellous.!!
Cheers.
P.S.
All gyros come with a roll cage for crash protection.
It\'s just not that obvious.
Cartwheel accidents like Ken Wallis\'s at Newtownards look
really spectacular, but pilots usually come out uninjured or
minor injury.
PIO/Power pushovers are not recoverable or survivable.
But please, not a standard RAF.
Standard Raf = 18 dead.
Raf with stabiliser = 1 dead. (and we're not sure how he managed
to do it)
Prime funeral candidates are high-time fixed-wing pilots with
low gyro-time.
As in Pee-Wee Judge et al, including the previously referred
accident to Gerry French's machine, the PIC was a high-time
ATPL with low gyro-time, not a gyro instructor.
You cannot install a stabiliser in the UK, courtesy of Section T
structural requirements.
Please go for a Magni, or an ELA (when it gets past Section T).
Or anything else that is legal in the U.K.
Chuck knows what he's talking about.
R22 pilots will understand the problems associated with
low/zero-G.
High-thrustline gyros are worse than that.
Properly configured/stabilised gyros are bloody marvellous.!!
Cheers.
P.S.
All gyros come with a roll cage for crash protection.
It\'s just not that obvious.
Cartwheel accidents like Ken Wallis\'s at Newtownards look
really spectacular, but pilots usually come out uninjured or
minor injury.
PIO/Power pushovers are not recoverable or survivable.
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Roxy
It seems that you asked for advice, got it from the very best people around and have chosen to completely ignore it.
I suggest you buy and fly an RAF2000 at the earliest oppurtunity.
It seems that you asked for advice, got it from the very best people around and have chosen to completely ignore it.
I suggest you buy and fly an RAF2000 at the earliest oppurtunity.
The Original Whirly
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Bar Shaker,
Roxy will have taken it in. I did almost the same thing a few years ago - kept being told not to buy one, and why, and kept saying, "But it looks so pretty; it's like a cheap R22". But I didn't buy one. I HAD been listening. I just didn't want to admit it, even to myself, since I was so disappointed. That's how human nature works.
Roxy will have taken it in. I did almost the same thing a few years ago - kept being told not to buy one, and why, and kept saying, "But it looks so pretty; it's like a cheap R22". But I didn't buy one. I HAD been listening. I just didn't want to admit it, even to myself, since I was so disappointed. That's how human nature works.