PA-28 or PA-38?
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Jolly Tall
Everything aft of your seat wobbles vigourously with audible bangs, twangs and crashes! There's a wing drop every time with varying degrees of savagarey from aircraft to aircraft. I'm told the wibbly wobbly tail is worse in the spin (I chickened out and did spinning in a Robin 2160 instead)
Happy memories of the Tomahawk though, including my first solo during my lunchbreak on 29th Feb'96
Everything aft of your seat wobbles vigourously with audible bangs, twangs and crashes! There's a wing drop every time with varying degrees of savagarey from aircraft to aircraft. I'm told the wibbly wobbly tail is worse in the spin (I chickened out and did spinning in a Robin 2160 instead)
Happy memories of the Tomahawk though, including my first solo during my lunchbreak on 29th Feb'96
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Matspart3: I did all my training on a Robin HR200. I saw a 2160 recently - looks like an HR200 with a larger tail. Fortunately the HR200 is not permitted to spin, so I've never done one. What is the 2160 like to fly compared to the 200?
GirlFlyday: I have only done 1hr in a PA38, but enjoyed it, although it seems to need more rudder control than the Robin. Presumably you did your IMC at Manchester (great web-site by the way). I am toying with the idea of doing my IMC rating at an airfield which uses PA38s. A good idea I wonder?
GirlFlyday: I have only done 1hr in a PA38, but enjoyed it, although it seems to need more rudder control than the Robin. Presumably you did your IMC at Manchester (great web-site by the way). I am toying with the idea of doing my IMC rating at an airfield which uses PA38s. A good idea I wonder?
Guest
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Thanks, Jolly Tall!
But yes, being the masochistic type I loved doing my IMC rating in a Tomahawk - because if you can do it in THAT, anything else is going to be a piece of cake! (Most other aircraft tending to be more stable)
But hey - I always did like a challenge!
But yes, being the masochistic type I loved doing my IMC rating in a Tomahawk - because if you can do it in THAT, anything else is going to be a piece of cake! (Most other aircraft tending to be more stable)
But hey - I always did like a challenge!
Guest
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Thanks all, lots of good advice here.
I think I'm going to take a couple of 'curiosity' lessons on the PA-28 - it'll make me feel more of a real pilot if I've flown more than just the PA-38
- but after that I'll head back to the Tomahawk at least until I start the cross country stuff, some time in the dim and distant future. Cheers
Guest
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A friend of a friend of a friend in the U.S. lost part of the elevator whilst spinning a PA38 a couple of years ago. He was testing the aircraft as part of it's certification and was wearing a parachute as apparently failure is not uncommon. There's a US manufacturer produces tail parachutes specifically for the type.
Many years ago I owned a PA28-140 (cleared for spinning!) Cherokee but also regularly flew the Terrorhawk. There's no comparison between the two. The 28's relatively luxury when you compare it to the horrible 38.
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hhhiiisssssccrrrraaaacckkkllesssshhhhhh
Many years ago I owned a PA28-140 (cleared for spinning!) Cherokee but also regularly flew the Terrorhawk. There's no comparison between the two. The 28's relatively luxury when you compare it to the horrible 38.
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hhhiiisssssccrrrraaaacckkkllesssshhhhhh
Guest
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Look.
Listen.
I have been a flying instructor for many years and taught on dozens of types. I've spun a PA38 tomahawk more times than some of the people here have actually flown.
Yes the tail twists. As per the design spec. Yes yes the skin flex makes a noise when it does so but then - its in the design spec.
The UK CAA have approved the PA38 for spinning with a suitable harness. That *really* is all you need to know.
Now as for the rest. PA28's cost about 25 quid an hour more and you'll never make that up with the 15kts higher cruise speed so they won;t save you money.
At the early stages of traing i.e. all of the PPL you want to be gaining BASIC handling skills which apply throughout your career. Therefore I want to see NO DME, an a/c that demands constant attention to attitude maintenance and that stalls with decent amounts of wing drop. This is the PA38.
Do you know how they designed the Tomahawk?
Well, they sent out a questionaire to EVERY registered flying instructor in the USA (early 70's) and asked them to rank over 100 attributes in order of preference.
This is just one reason why the PA38 is the only common training aircraft that allows torrents of hot air to the feet whilst cold outside air blasts your face...
This is an aircraft largely deigned by Flying Instructors. Those 'Bad Points' other students mention are there for a reason. If you can master the PA38 - and lets face it we ar enot talking rocket science here - you'll have a good foundation for future higher performance types. Frankly the PA28 Warrior (my office for all of last year) is designed for big fat Hank the Dumbass Yank (no offence to Americans) to tool around the Kansas prairies in whilst shovelling his last Big Mac down his throat whilst Mary-Ellen tries to tune the ADF to the local Country Music W.A.F.M. station. Its toooooo easy.
Thats my tuppence h'penny anyhows.
WWW
Listen.
I have been a flying instructor for many years and taught on dozens of types. I've spun a PA38 tomahawk more times than some of the people here have actually flown.
Yes the tail twists. As per the design spec. Yes yes the skin flex makes a noise when it does so but then - its in the design spec.
The UK CAA have approved the PA38 for spinning with a suitable harness. That *really* is all you need to know.
Now as for the rest. PA28's cost about 25 quid an hour more and you'll never make that up with the 15kts higher cruise speed so they won;t save you money.
At the early stages of traing i.e. all of the PPL you want to be gaining BASIC handling skills which apply throughout your career. Therefore I want to see NO DME, an a/c that demands constant attention to attitude maintenance and that stalls with decent amounts of wing drop. This is the PA38.
Do you know how they designed the Tomahawk?
Well, they sent out a questionaire to EVERY registered flying instructor in the USA (early 70's) and asked them to rank over 100 attributes in order of preference.
This is just one reason why the PA38 is the only common training aircraft that allows torrents of hot air to the feet whilst cold outside air blasts your face...
This is an aircraft largely deigned by Flying Instructors. Those 'Bad Points' other students mention are there for a reason. If you can master the PA38 - and lets face it we ar enot talking rocket science here - you'll have a good foundation for future higher performance types. Frankly the PA28 Warrior (my office for all of last year) is designed for big fat Hank the Dumbass Yank (no offence to Americans) to tool around the Kansas prairies in whilst shovelling his last Big Mac down his throat whilst Mary-Ellen tries to tune the ADF to the local Country Music W.A.F.M. station. Its toooooo easy.
Thats my tuppence h'penny anyhows.
WWW
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200Hrs 28, 50Hrs 38.
Go with WWW's advice. Tomahawk is great. With the extra dosh you save in hiring it, buy everybody within 2nm a beer when you go solo! (and invite me first!)
Good luck!
CCCcccc...ough
[This message has been edited by Cough (edited 17 May 2001).]
Go with WWW's advice. Tomahawk is great. With the extra dosh you save in hiring it, buy everybody within 2nm a beer when you go solo! (and invite me first!)
Good luck!
CCCcccc...ough
[This message has been edited by Cough (edited 17 May 2001).]
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I have been flying the BE-77 Beechcraft skipper which is basicly identical to the tomahawk. Since i have passed my GFPT test which allowed me to move onto the warrior, I have never looked back. I find the warrior a much more stable aircraft with much more power to play with. If your looking to do NAVS, i recommend the warrior by far.
Guest
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Hi Evo, Warrior all the way!! The Tomahawk is a great aircraft, but it is twitchy at low speeds, and likes to stall much easier than the Warrior. Is also more likely to drop a wing as a result. The PA28 is more money as you say, but i reckon its the better aircraft to learn in.
.....see ya over Selsey......
.....see ya over Selsey......
Guest
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Hey Speedbird!
As long as seeing me over Selsey is part of HASELL, and not the Oh F*ck! kind
I've got two lessons in the PA-28 coming up, but I'm planning on taking the Tomahawk out for a bit after that. Figure that I'm probably better off spending some time in the harder of the two, but given how hard it is getting to book anything on a Saturday afternoon at the moment, I'll take what ever I can get. Addicted......
I'll get a reply to your mail ASAP, by the way. Just been busy. That beer is just waiting to be served, too
All the best,
Evo.
As long as seeing me over Selsey is part of HASELL, and not the Oh F*ck! kind
I've got two lessons in the PA-28 coming up, but I'm planning on taking the Tomahawk out for a bit after that. Figure that I'm probably better off spending some time in the harder of the two, but given how hard it is getting to book anything on a Saturday afternoon at the moment, I'll take what ever I can get. Addicted......
I'll get a reply to your mail ASAP, by the way. Just been busy. That beer is just waiting to be served, too
All the best,
Evo.
Guest
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Wasn't the Skipper designed by the same person as the Tomahawk,Who then Ironed out all the Tomahawks flaws. Read somewhere that the original Pa38 was designed with 11 full ribs in the wings and the production model had only 4 full ribs and the rest were only half ribs ,Hence weaker wing and it flexes. The only real problem i find on the Tomahawk is the stupid trim system ,That big spring that bounces around in turb. I did most of my PPL in a Tomahawk dam fine Aircraft.A nice Black example.. katana for me!!!
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One's as dull as the other.
Get your licence on the cheapest aircraft available then fly as many different types as you can.
A tailwheel course will open many new types to you and they perform and handle better than nosewheel aircraft.
Robins are nice, as are Slingsby's.
Get your licence on the cheapest aircraft available then fly as many different types as you can.
A tailwheel course will open many new types to you and they perform and handle better than nosewheel aircraft.
Robins are nice, as are Slingsby's.
Guest
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No problem Evo, Im not going to start finishing my PPL till August, but I will fly every week then, weather permitting till Im done!! Gonna do My IMC on the back of it!!
Listen, I know we are waiting for the perfect day for this Beer, if you want, e-mail me, and we can meet up anyway, rain or shine. Im sure we can find loads to talk about!
Regards my friend.
Listen, I know we are waiting for the perfect day for this Beer, if you want, e-mail me, and we can meet up anyway, rain or shine. Im sure we can find loads to talk about!
Regards my friend.
Guest
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I agree with everything WWW said about the Tomahawk. O K, some of its characteristics are a bit unforgiving but with constant attention to detail (and isn't that what learning to fly is all about) it won't bite you and you'll end up a safe and skilled pilot.
I've seen the tail waggle in a spin but what the hell the thing was designed for it.
Save your money, go for the Tomahawk and convert when you get your PPL. I converted to the PA28 Cherokee, the C182, and had my IMC in a Warrior all within 25 hours of the PPL, thanks to the tomahawk.(and my instructors of course).
If you can land a PA38 you can land anything.
Cheers
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Cusco
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Evo
Did my PPL, IMC and Night in a Traumahawk. Now the proud owner of a chunk of a Warrior. Save your money on the cheaper aircraft whilst you're learning - it's a good aircraft for that. Fly it and a 4 seater enough to stay current in both (alternate months or flights). That way you keep the costs down a little bit but have access to a 4 seater when you need it.
CM
Did my PPL, IMC and Night in a Traumahawk. Now the proud owner of a chunk of a Warrior. Save your money on the cheaper aircraft whilst you're learning - it's a good aircraft for that. Fly it and a 4 seater enough to stay current in both (alternate months or flights). That way you keep the costs down a little bit but have access to a 4 seater when you need it.
CM