Am I a (trainee) Aerobatic Snob???
Not so N, but still FG
Join Date: May 2000
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Whilst we are doing the book reviews, David Robson's fairly recent book on aeros is worth a look. Indeed, it's pretty useful even if you are not especially interested in aerobatics as it includes some clear and helpful stuff on the basic physics of flight manoeuvres and on physiological factors, quite apart from the aerobatic guidance.
As regards aircraft twitchiness, I'll comment on the Cap 10 and leave it to others to sum up the other types available. The Cap feels pretty stable in flight. It is very light on the controls, and, when you move them, the aircraft responds instantaneously, rather than waiting until next Thursday as in, ahem, certain popular types, but I don't think that I would call the aircraft twitchy. It’s worth noting that the elevator trimmer is very sensitive: tiny adjustments produce big changes.
Its takeoff and landing characteristics are relatively benign, as taildraggers go, the main difficulty when learning to fly it being its energetic slipperiness: making the thing slow down and descend takes some getting used to. The flaps don't make a huge difference, and you have to be careful about the flap limiting speed.
Monsieur Mudry liked to keep things simple, so the aircraft does not have a wobbly prop, which I think is a slight drawback, if only because I’m idle, although I feel more cheerful about it when the engineering bills come in.
It's good for your eyes: you can see all around you, and the forward view in the three-point attitude is quite reasonable. It's not so good for your ears, as it’s quite noisy in the cockpit, especially with the air vents open on a warm day. I must upgrade my headsets to ANR. On sunny days you have to wear a baseball cap, which puts you at some risk of being mistaken for a helicopter pilot, oh dear.
On the ground, taxiing in a stiff breeze needs a degree of alertness, especially once across the wind, as the large fin and fuselage keel area encourage pirouetting, so stir your feet. Think of it as equivalent to a step-class workout. Buns of steel in no time.
Overall, however, a most enjoyable package and I have no regrets about buying into one. Hey, it's got elliptical wings, and how cool is that?
As regards aircraft twitchiness, I'll comment on the Cap 10 and leave it to others to sum up the other types available. The Cap feels pretty stable in flight. It is very light on the controls, and, when you move them, the aircraft responds instantaneously, rather than waiting until next Thursday as in, ahem, certain popular types, but I don't think that I would call the aircraft twitchy. It’s worth noting that the elevator trimmer is very sensitive: tiny adjustments produce big changes.
Its takeoff and landing characteristics are relatively benign, as taildraggers go, the main difficulty when learning to fly it being its energetic slipperiness: making the thing slow down and descend takes some getting used to. The flaps don't make a huge difference, and you have to be careful about the flap limiting speed.
Monsieur Mudry liked to keep things simple, so the aircraft does not have a wobbly prop, which I think is a slight drawback, if only because I’m idle, although I feel more cheerful about it when the engineering bills come in.
It's good for your eyes: you can see all around you, and the forward view in the three-point attitude is quite reasonable. It's not so good for your ears, as it’s quite noisy in the cockpit, especially with the air vents open on a warm day. I must upgrade my headsets to ANR. On sunny days you have to wear a baseball cap, which puts you at some risk of being mistaken for a helicopter pilot, oh dear.
On the ground, taxiing in a stiff breeze needs a degree of alertness, especially once across the wind, as the large fin and fuselage keel area encourage pirouetting, so stir your feet. Think of it as equivalent to a step-class workout. Buns of steel in no time.
Overall, however, a most enjoyable package and I have no regrets about buying into one. Hey, it's got elliptical wings, and how cool is that?
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I'd agree with FNG about handling - same applies to the Yak and IMHO should apply to all fun aeroplanes - response is immediate, is exactly what you ordered, and starts and stops NOW!
I think a wobbly prop is exteremly useful in aeros. In the Chippy (fixed pitch) I'm forever haveing to throttle back to avoid overrevving. This means you lose heigh faster, and there's always the danger you won't be quick enogh throttling back and the engine will over-rev. It could be argued that this is no bad thng in a trainer, since it makes you 'engine aware'.
In the Yak, you set full power and 82 percent RPM, forget the engine from then on (except Ts & Ps of course) and haul it around the sky - using both hands if required ;~))
SSD
I think a wobbly prop is exteremly useful in aeros. In the Chippy (fixed pitch) I'm forever haveing to throttle back to avoid overrevving. This means you lose heigh faster, and there's always the danger you won't be quick enogh throttling back and the engine will over-rev. It could be argued that this is no bad thng in a trainer, since it makes you 'engine aware'.
In the Yak, you set full power and 82 percent RPM, forget the engine from then on (except Ts & Ps of course) and haul it around the sky - using both hands if required ;~))
SSD
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I've always wanted to fly a Cap 10 - being a side-by-side is probably great for receiving instruction as compared with a tandem configuration, although I have no complaints regarding the latter. It is also a superb looking aircraft - if only it wasn't so expensive (I am sure any owner will of course say that you get what you pay for...). FNG is right, the elliptical wing is gorgeous.
As regards whether a more complex aircraft is better or worse in which to learn the basics, well, think about how many figures / maneouvres you can fly per hour. Spinning for example - the more powerful the aircraft, the faster you can climb to the height you will learn at, the faster you can regain height to that point etc. End result - much more aerobatic flying per hour. Doesn't really matter whether Pitts, Cap, Yak etc. You just "waste" less time gaining / regaining height.
So on a £££ per maneouvre basis, you may just end up coming out ahead...
As regards whether a more complex aircraft is better or worse in which to learn the basics, well, think about how many figures / maneouvres you can fly per hour. Spinning for example - the more powerful the aircraft, the faster you can climb to the height you will learn at, the faster you can regain height to that point etc. End result - much more aerobatic flying per hour. Doesn't really matter whether Pitts, Cap, Yak etc. You just "waste" less time gaining / regaining height.
So on a £££ per maneouvre basis, you may just end up coming out ahead...
Not so N, but still FG
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I don't know of any shares going, but there are a couple of 10bs on the market at the moment, both said to be quite nice, although one of them will need a new engine soonish (IO360s in aerobatic machines live short but cheerful lives). Perhaps you should talk to one of my co-owners, as he often goes on about of getting a second aircraft, in order to further his evil plans for world domination in aerobatic instruction, but I and the other co-owner tell him but that we have shelled out big stylee already and can't quite justify having two of everything. You never know, though. Send me an email via pprune if you want to chat about it.
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Flickoff, I note that you trained on a Pitts S2A at White Waltham, was that with Alan Cassidy ?
I did 40 mins intro with him earlier in the year in G-STUA, amazing stuff, going to book another session as soon as this weather picks up.
By the way, where did you get Bill Thomas's two books from, I have searched at Amazon and Airlife with no luck, any help would be much appreciated.
[ 04 February 2002: Message edited by: Letdown ]</p>
I did 40 mins intro with him earlier in the year in G-STUA, amazing stuff, going to book another session as soon as this weather picks up.
By the way, where did you get Bill Thomas's two books from, I have searched at Amazon and Airlife with no luck, any help would be much appreciated.
[ 04 February 2002: Message edited by: Letdown ]</p>
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#1 - Buy Flight Unlimited by Eric Mueller and read it.
#2 - Come up North and see Cassells at Bagby - He's the top UK aero's pilot, he teaches on a T67 and he is very good. <a href="http://www.skyboard.co.uk" target="_blank">http://www.skyboard.co.uk</a>
#2 - Come up North and see Cassells at Bagby - He's the top UK aero's pilot, he teaches on a T67 and he is very good. <a href="http://www.skyboard.co.uk" target="_blank">http://www.skyboard.co.uk</a>
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Letdown: I didn't say I learnt to fly a Pitts with Alan Cassidy, I did my Pitts training at Sywell with Northamptonshire School of Flying (01604 644678)in their S2A. Excellent value good people nice airfield - (can I have my free AVGAS now)
. .As far as the Bill Thomas books are concerned, I bought one from Alan Cassidy who just happened to have a supply at an aeros contest several years ago, and another whilst I was in the states. I have bought several back for friends, and that is probably the easiest way. I know that the afore mentioned flying school ae trying to get a heap of copies from Bill Thomas and so you might like to give then a ring, or I think you can get them direct from Bill Thomas.
. .As far as the Bill Thomas books are concerned, I bought one from Alan Cassidy who just happened to have a supply at an aeros contest several years ago, and another whilst I was in the states. I have bought several back for friends, and that is probably the easiest way. I know that the afore mentioned flying school ae trying to get a heap of copies from Bill Thomas and so you might like to give then a ring, or I think you can get them direct from Bill Thomas.
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Flickoff, apologies, my mistake, I thought you learnt to fly the Pitts at WW not Sywell. Thanks for the advice re: Northamptonshire School of Flying, I will call in next time I'm down in that area and also check if they have any copies of Bill Thomas's books available.
Javelin, I will try and get hold of a copy of "Flight Unlimited" and read it ! I'm up in Leeds next week so might just drive across to Bagby and see if Tom Cassells is around.
Thanks once again guys.
Letdown
Javelin, I will try and get hold of a copy of "Flight Unlimited" and read it ! I'm up in Leeds next week so might just drive across to Bagby and see if Tom Cassells is around.
Thanks once again guys.
Letdown
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Flight Unlimited is difficult to get hold of here. I believe you may be able to source a copy through the British Aerobatic Association - they certainly have contact with the author. Alternatively it should be available through the EAA.
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Hi,
I would seriously consider trying the Firefly. The wobbly prop gives one less thing to worry about,the side by side seating is good for training, the a/c is easy to fly, and there is all round excellent visibility. The slight downside is that the big wings do show mistakes, but if you get it right, it's showcase stuff.
As Javelin said, Tom Cassells is your man for this! I am a notoriously timid pilot, but he and his assistant Dennis managed to train me to win a Beginners contest, and to be able to compete at Standard without disgracing myself. (No zeros and staying in the box, and not coming last wasn't bad for a first attempt!). I can't afford to put too much money through the engine and practice as much as some, but it's still good fun.
I'm not sure of the virtue of doing an AOPA course - once you have flown your first contest, that 'tick-in-the-box' doesn't seem relevant anymore!
Hope to see you at Bagby sometime!
I would seriously consider trying the Firefly. The wobbly prop gives one less thing to worry about,the side by side seating is good for training, the a/c is easy to fly, and there is all round excellent visibility. The slight downside is that the big wings do show mistakes, but if you get it right, it's showcase stuff.
As Javelin said, Tom Cassells is your man for this! I am a notoriously timid pilot, but he and his assistant Dennis managed to train me to win a Beginners contest, and to be able to compete at Standard without disgracing myself. (No zeros and staying in the box, and not coming last wasn't bad for a first attempt!). I can't afford to put too much money through the engine and practice as much as some, but it's still good fun.
I'm not sure of the virtue of doing an AOPA course - once you have flown your first contest, that 'tick-in-the-box' doesn't seem relevant anymore!
Hope to see you at Bagby sometime!
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There is a Pitts & Aerobatic AC flt in at Popham in May. Does anyone have ny thoughts on wether it . .will be worth a visit to speak to the pilots about what & where?
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Doing aero's in any a/c is a joy. It's just that some are even better than others.
Personally I was lucky enough to start my aero training in CAP 10's. I still feel that they are the best machine available for beginners.. .Unfortunately those heady days have gone and I now teach (occasionally) on a 150 aerobat. To be honest I think they are terrible to learn on, take ages to climb after mistakes, viz is poor and doing aeros with a control column is definately not as fun as with a 'stick of joy.'
I'm lucky enough to get the chance of flying Extra 300's, Van's and Yak 52's on occasion, and I feel that something like 300 is a bit much when you first start chucking things about. Something like a Cap or firefly is really ideal to start with. They are a little bit exotic and are strong enough to allow the student to feel that little bit more comfortable and that always leads to better progress.
Wobbly prop or no wobbly prop. Hmmm, Learning to keep an eye on RPM's etc is a good thing to get in the habit of straight away. Having a wobbly prop does make life easier, but it can mask problems, and if you decide to try aero's without one..... We've all done it. Over-revving is not funny and really cuts down on the fun factor.
Give Gennady a try, he really is something special and the yak is alot of fun.. .If funds allow, try all the a/c mentioned by everyone if you can. Make up your own mind what you want out of aero's. Competition or just fun??
But, please don't try to run before you can walk. Start small and build up, in the long term you'll find the standard of your flying will be better than if you just jumped into the latest "hotship". .Most of all enjoy. It really is the most fun you can have. In Bed OR out!! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
Personally I was lucky enough to start my aero training in CAP 10's. I still feel that they are the best machine available for beginners.. .Unfortunately those heady days have gone and I now teach (occasionally) on a 150 aerobat. To be honest I think they are terrible to learn on, take ages to climb after mistakes, viz is poor and doing aeros with a control column is definately not as fun as with a 'stick of joy.'
I'm lucky enough to get the chance of flying Extra 300's, Van's and Yak 52's on occasion, and I feel that something like 300 is a bit much when you first start chucking things about. Something like a Cap or firefly is really ideal to start with. They are a little bit exotic and are strong enough to allow the student to feel that little bit more comfortable and that always leads to better progress.
Wobbly prop or no wobbly prop. Hmmm, Learning to keep an eye on RPM's etc is a good thing to get in the habit of straight away. Having a wobbly prop does make life easier, but it can mask problems, and if you decide to try aero's without one..... We've all done it. Over-revving is not funny and really cuts down on the fun factor.
Give Gennady a try, he really is something special and the yak is alot of fun.. .If funds allow, try all the a/c mentioned by everyone if you can. Make up your own mind what you want out of aero's. Competition or just fun??
But, please don't try to run before you can walk. Start small and build up, in the long term you'll find the standard of your flying will be better than if you just jumped into the latest "hotship". .Most of all enjoy. It really is the most fun you can have. In Bed OR out!! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
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Have just spent last week finessing some of my maneouvers in a Pitts S2A in the States with a great instructor, 12 hours in the Pitts then somebody offered me the chance of flying their 220hp Stearman!
For teaching basic stick and rudder skills the Stearmanwould be hard to beat - so powerful is the trimmer that I managed to loop it using that alone!
Stik
For teaching basic stick and rudder skills the Stearmanwould be hard to beat - so powerful is the trimmer that I managed to loop it using that alone!
Stik
