Checklists
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Pace,
Interesting you should say that. I was picked up by PPRuNer A and C on a dual flight once for exactly that - he pointed out I was using the checklist as a 'do list' not as a check that I hadn't forgotten anything. He was right, too. I'm trying to wean myself off it - easier in a familiar type (e.g. today I was flying a DR400 for the first time in a while and I was a bit behind the checklist at times...)
Tim
Interesting you should say that. I was picked up by PPRuNer A and C on a dual flight once for exactly that - he pointed out I was using the checklist as a 'do list' not as a check that I hadn't forgotten anything. He was right, too. I'm trying to wean myself off it - easier in a familiar type (e.g. today I was flying a DR400 for the first time in a while and I was a bit behind the checklist at times...)
Tim
Pace,
Interesting you should say that. I was picked up by PPRuNer A and C on a dual flight once for exactly that - he pointed out I was using the checklist as a 'do list' not as a check that I hadn't forgotten anything. He was right, too. I'm trying to wean myself off it - easier in a familiar type (e.g. today I was flying a DR400 for the first time in a while and I was a bit behind the checklist at times...)
Tim
Interesting you should say that. I was picked up by PPRuNer A and C on a dual flight once for exactly that - he pointed out I was using the checklist as a 'do list' not as a check that I hadn't forgotten anything. He was right, too. I'm trying to wean myself off it - easier in a familiar type (e.g. today I was flying a DR400 for the first time in a while and I was a bit behind the checklist at times...)
Tim
For a simplistic example, failing to check that the gear lever is down BEFORE turning the battery master switch is on.
G
A slight thread drift but having just read a thread in the military forum about someone distracted doing the walkround, it seems he was using a written checklist as an action list as he walked the aircraft.
I am curious how most people were taught to do a walkround, or opinions as to which is best and why
Is it:
1. Check each item on the written list as you go, one at a time.
2. Check say, the port wing, then review the checklist to see all items checked.
3. Look at the aircraft and do the walkround from memory, only using the checklist when in the seat.
Thanks
I am curious how most people were taught to do a walkround, or opinions as to which is best and why
Is it:
1. Check each item on the written list as you go, one at a time.
2. Check say, the port wing, then review the checklist to see all items checked.
3. Look at the aircraft and do the walkround from memory, only using the checklist when in the seat.
Thanks
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I find a lot of people use duff checklists.
Most of the off the shelf (pilot shop) checklists are OK in general but are no good for a specific plane.
Everyone flying a specific plane regularly should knock up a dedicated checklist, tailored for the particular avionics, etc. Usually this will involve building one up from extracts found in the POH supplements, etc.
Most of the off the shelf (pilot shop) checklists are OK in general but are no good for a specific plane.
Everyone flying a specific plane regularly should knock up a dedicated checklist, tailored for the particular avionics, etc. Usually this will involve building one up from extracts found in the POH supplements, etc.
Thread Starter
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One last q then... though I've been through the POHs a couple of times I don't recall a simple checklist for this. If I were to suspect my engine power has dropped a little, or if I detected a bit of rough running, I'd go for carb heat first. What else would you suggest checking/doing?
The "fleet" I'm privileged to be able to use comprises C150/2, PA28 and AA5 - so nothing fancy!
The "fleet" I'm privileged to be able to use comprises C150/2, PA28 and AA5 - so nothing fancy!
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If I were to suspect my engine power has dropped a little, or if I detected a bit of rough running, I'd go for carb heat first. What else would you suggest checking/doing?
Another thing to check is whether you've leaned properly. Over-leaning can cause rough running as well.
Further, you might want to play with the throttle, fuel selector and the fuel pump a bit. There's not a lot of failure scenarios in this area that lead to rough running, but in your average spamcan, that's about all the engine controls you have, so there's not much else you can do in-flight.
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At least in C172 POH there is special section under Emergeny Procedures called Rough engine operation or loss of power - perhaps it's also in C150/2.
But basically, BackPacker covered the entire procedure. Just to remind you, if you will apply carb heat, the RPM will drop initially, even if carb is full of ice. The proper procedure is to apply carb heat and then wait 10-20 seconds and monitor for any rise in RPM which would be a sign of carb ice.
Also, descend from high-altitudes with mixture fully rich may cause engine roughness - most instructors teach fully rich at TOD, but that actually overcools the engine and the combustion isn't as clean as it would be with a leaner mixture. The way I was taught is to leave the mixture at TOD where it was during cruise, and moving the lever 0.5-1 cm to the rich every 1000 ft, untill reaching 2500-3000 ft, where mixture is set fully rich.
As BackPacker also said, you could try different throttle/mixture settings, which is actually recommended procedure by Cessna, if I remember correctly. And when/if you find the setting that gives you the least roughness, at that setting you fly to the nearest airfield.
But basically, BackPacker covered the entire procedure. Just to remind you, if you will apply carb heat, the RPM will drop initially, even if carb is full of ice. The proper procedure is to apply carb heat and then wait 10-20 seconds and monitor for any rise in RPM which would be a sign of carb ice.
Also, descend from high-altitudes with mixture fully rich may cause engine roughness - most instructors teach fully rich at TOD, but that actually overcools the engine and the combustion isn't as clean as it would be with a leaner mixture. The way I was taught is to leave the mixture at TOD where it was during cruise, and moving the lever 0.5-1 cm to the rich every 1000 ft, untill reaching 2500-3000 ft, where mixture is set fully rich.
As BackPacker also said, you could try different throttle/mixture settings, which is actually recommended procedure by Cessna, if I remember correctly. And when/if you find the setting that gives you the least roughness, at that setting you fly to the nearest airfield.
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Oh, and of course you need to remember that the aim is not to go to the nearest airfield ASAP, but to get there safely.
If the rough running disappears at, say, 50% power, and 50% power is enough to sustain flight, you'd better fly to the airport at 50% power with a smooth running engine, than at 100% power with a rough running engine.
This is a scenario that could be caused by a partial fuel line blockage, for instance due to a dirty filter. At 50% throttle the engine receives enough fuel so runs fine, but at 100% throttle fuel flow is too restricted, leading to a too-lean mixture. Not good.
If the rough running disappears at, say, 50% power, and 50% power is enough to sustain flight, you'd better fly to the airport at 50% power with a smooth running engine, than at 100% power with a rough running engine.
This is a scenario that could be caused by a partial fuel line blockage, for instance due to a dirty filter. At 50% throttle the engine receives enough fuel so runs fine, but at 100% throttle fuel flow is too restricted, leading to a too-lean mixture. Not good.
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Power Check on Constant Speed Props
Hi Guys!
I used to be a big fan of doing a static rpm check just before brake release on my previous aircraft (small engine on TBO extension vs short field).
I have now a new aircraft with CS prop. What can I do now as a check that the engine is producing full power?
At about half throttle I already have full RPM. And the MAP indication is merely an indication that the valve itself is wide open but doesn't say anything about the power produced.
I used to be a big fan of doing a static rpm check just before brake release on my previous aircraft (small engine on TBO extension vs short field).
I have now a new aircraft with CS prop. What can I do now as a check that the engine is producing full power?
At about half throttle I already have full RPM. And the MAP indication is merely an indication that the valve itself is wide open but doesn't say anything about the power produced.
Originally Posted by crankshaft
Hi Guys!
I used to be a big fan of doing a static rpm check just before brake release on my previous aircraft (small engine on TBO extension vs short field).
I have now a new aircraft with CS prop. What can I do now as a check that the engine is producing full power?
At about half throttle I already have full RPM. And the MAP indication is merely an indication that the valve itself is wide open but doesn't say anything about the power produced.
I used to be a big fan of doing a static rpm check just before brake release on my previous aircraft (small engine on TBO extension vs short field).
I have now a new aircraft with CS prop. What can I do now as a check that the engine is producing full power?
At about half throttle I already have full RPM. And the MAP indication is merely an indication that the valve itself is wide open but doesn't say anything about the power produced.
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Flyinkiwi... My whole point is that the MAP can NOT be relied upon as an indicator of power.
Lets say that we loose one magneto during T/O roll. The MAP would still indicate ambient pressure (if full Throttle and normal aspirated) and we would still have max rpm. But we would have less power and the prop would be in a finer pitch in order to maintain rpm. We would notice the power drop only when power has decreased to the value where rpm goes in full fine and not able to maintain rpm. Remember that MAP shows about 30" even with engine stopped!
Lets say that we loose one magneto during T/O roll. The MAP would still indicate ambient pressure (if full Throttle and normal aspirated) and we would still have max rpm. But we would have less power and the prop would be in a finer pitch in order to maintain rpm. We would notice the power drop only when power has decreased to the value where rpm goes in full fine and not able to maintain rpm. Remember that MAP shows about 30" even with engine stopped!
Crank
The MP guage only indicates 30 in at sea level and on a standard day. You will see less MP (much less at high/hot airports) in other conditions, Therefore it is always a good idea to compare the field barometric indication (ie what the MP guage says when the engine is stopped) with what is showing on the MP guage when full power is achieved at the beginning of the takeoff roll.
However full power in an aircraft with a constant speed prop is only achieved at field baro MP (minus 1/2 in for induction losses) and redline RPM. If the engine has a dead mag it will not make full RPM in the takeoff roll because the prop remains on the mechanical fixed pitch stops in the full fine position untill about rotation speed.
The MP guage only indicates 30 in at sea level and on a standard day. You will see less MP (much less at high/hot airports) in other conditions, Therefore it is always a good idea to compare the field barometric indication (ie what the MP guage says when the engine is stopped) with what is showing on the MP guage when full power is achieved at the beginning of the takeoff roll.
However full power in an aircraft with a constant speed prop is only achieved at field baro MP (minus 1/2 in for induction losses) and redline RPM. If the engine has a dead mag it will not make full RPM in the takeoff roll because the prop remains on the mechanical fixed pitch stops in the full fine position untill about rotation speed.
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I use a checklist on our Arrow which was specifically created for that Arrow many years ago. Everything in it therefore is relevant :there are no gaps.
It is as specific to our Arrow as the wooden dipstick painstakingly created by slowly filling the fuel tanks by a group member .
I have therefore never 'learnt' the ground part of the checklist, but use the list every time before take off:
Needless to say however I have learnt the airborne checks and the emergency checks but am not averse to pulling the list out from time to time as 'revision'.
Our checklist also suggests putting c/s prop to fully fine as part of downwind checks: this leaves one fewer action to try and remember in the emotion of an unexpected go-around.
However 'prop to fully-fine' should not be undertaken till speed is reduced to circuit speed and then reduced slowly if only to avoid sudden change of engine note provoking dozens of pairs of anxious eyes to point skywards: something we have to avoid at all costs in our nimby-dense area of England.
Cusco
It is as specific to our Arrow as the wooden dipstick painstakingly created by slowly filling the fuel tanks by a group member .
I have therefore never 'learnt' the ground part of the checklist, but use the list every time before take off:
Needless to say however I have learnt the airborne checks and the emergency checks but am not averse to pulling the list out from time to time as 'revision'.
Our checklist also suggests putting c/s prop to fully fine as part of downwind checks: this leaves one fewer action to try and remember in the emotion of an unexpected go-around.
However 'prop to fully-fine' should not be undertaken till speed is reduced to circuit speed and then reduced slowly if only to avoid sudden change of engine note provoking dozens of pairs of anxious eyes to point skywards: something we have to avoid at all costs in our nimby-dense area of England.
Cusco
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Originally Posted by Bingofuel
A slight thread drift but having just read a thread in the military forum about someone distracted doing the walkround, it seems he was using a written checklist as an action list as he walked the aircraft.
I am curious how most people were taught to do a walkround, or opinions as to which is best and why
Is it:
1. Check each item on the written list as you go, one at a time.
2. Check say, the port wing, then review the checklist to see all items checked.
3. Look at the aircraft and do the walkround from memory, only using the checklist when in the seat.
I am curious how most people were taught to do a walkround, or opinions as to which is best and why
Is it:
1. Check each item on the written list as you go, one at a time.
2. Check say, the port wing, then review the checklist to see all items checked.
3. Look at the aircraft and do the walkround from memory, only using the checklist when in the seat.
I take the same approach with GA, most aircraft are the same, you just need to know the little extras a particular type has and what is 'normal' in terms of play on the wobbly bits.
I have re-worked the cockpit checks for my new groupoplane so that they flow from the floor in the centre out to the left-hand panel to make it easier for me to learn them and not to miss anything so that I can drop the physical checklist once I am used to flying it a bit more
In the RAF we were shown the Walkaround on the Wessex, given the written checklist and told to learn it. We just then did the walkaround, looking at stuff as we came to it. There was a lot more climbing involved than the average spamcan and a lot more oily bits.....
I take the same approach with GA, most aircraft are the same, you just need to know the little extras a particular type has and what is 'normal' in terms of play on the wobbly bits.
I have re-worked the cockpit checks for my new groupoplane so that they flow from the floor in the centre out to the left-hand panel to make it easier for me to learn them and not to miss anything so that I can drop the physical checklist once I am used to flying it a bit more
I take the same approach with GA, most aircraft are the same, you just need to know the little extras a particular type has and what is 'normal' in terms of play on the wobbly bits.
I have re-worked the cockpit checks for my new groupoplane so that they flow from the floor in the centre out to the left-hand panel to make it easier for me to learn them and not to miss anything so that I can drop the physical checklist once I am used to flying it a bit more
.
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Big Pistons,
If I hold the brakes in my aircraft and slowly increase the thottle, the redline rpm would be reached at a MP typically of about 25-26". When I increase the throttle further I imagine that the CSU increases the pitch. (Yet holding the brakes).
Therefore I imagine that a malfunction that only causes a slight power reduction could go un-noticed if I only confirm "full MP - redline rpm".
It was a long time since I flew any other CS prop aircraft so I have basicly nothing to compare with, but is it normal to achieve redline rpm at zero speed before the thottle is fully opened?
If I hold the brakes in my aircraft and slowly increase the thottle, the redline rpm would be reached at a MP typically of about 25-26". When I increase the throttle further I imagine that the CSU increases the pitch. (Yet holding the brakes).
Therefore I imagine that a malfunction that only causes a slight power reduction could go un-noticed if I only confirm "full MP - redline rpm".
It was a long time since I flew any other CS prop aircraft so I have basicly nothing to compare with, but is it normal to achieve redline rpm at zero speed before the thottle is fully opened?
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Please guys no more 'Mixture - Rich' (even if it does say so in checklists and POHs). It should be something like 'Mixture - As required'. Try putting mixture to rich in high and hot places, which you may not do at the moment but may do in the future, and you could end up in trouble.
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To the original question...
I'd always recommend a checklist. I use a modified version of the Kirk Kenton 182Q checklist (see link). Its printed as a two sided A4 laminated sheet with normal stuff on one side and all the emergency stuff on the other.
Free Cessna 182RG Skylane Checklists to Download
Two good reasons I use them are:
1. I do forget things rather more than I would like to admit.
2. When carrying passengers in the front seat, I give them a copy of the checklist and ask them to follow me through as we go through the checks. I hope it conveys a degree of professionalism.
And the third of two is that I've got all the emergency stuff to hand....after all, if you do get a fire in the wing
I'd always recommend a checklist. I use a modified version of the Kirk Kenton 182Q checklist (see link). Its printed as a two sided A4 laminated sheet with normal stuff on one side and all the emergency stuff on the other.
Free Cessna 182RG Skylane Checklists to Download
Two good reasons I use them are:
1. I do forget things rather more than I would like to admit.
2. When carrying passengers in the front seat, I give them a copy of the checklist and ask them to follow me through as we go through the checks. I hope it conveys a degree of professionalism.
And the third of two is that I've got all the emergency stuff to hand....after all, if you do get a fire in the wing