A polite reminder...
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A polite reminder...
...that military airfield ATZs are H24 even if the airfield is apparently 'closed' and you can't get a reply on the radio.
While club duty pilot recently at 'ours' there were a couple of infringements - in one case the pilot called on the radio without receiving reply so then flew through the ATZ. Probably she thought it was OK, as at a civilian airfield if the airfield is closed the ATZ disappears. Not so at a military one, I'm afraid.
Not a big deal but worth remembering - we had circuit traffic at the time...
Thanks,
Tim
While club duty pilot recently at 'ours' there were a couple of infringements - in one case the pilot called on the radio without receiving reply so then flew through the ATZ. Probably she thought it was OK, as at a civilian airfield if the airfield is closed the ATZ disappears. Not so at a military one, I'm afraid.
Not a big deal but worth remembering - we had circuit traffic at the time...
Thanks,
Tim
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Not trying to detract to from the infringement as your post is valid. However, I wonder if you could answer a question from a newbie (a PPL with less than a year's experience)?
Is it a common occurrence for the radio to be unmanned at a military airfield especially considering an active circuit? Also, you mention there were previous infringements; was radio contacted attempted in those cases also?
Thanks
Ryan
Is it a common occurrence for the radio to be unmanned at a military airfield especially considering an active circuit? Also, you mention there were previous infringements; was radio contacted attempted in those cases also?
Thanks
Ryan
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You had circuit traffic, all with radios I presume and you're able to say that the infringer was a female? Clearly, one of you heard her, on a radio.
You're not helping your own case here.
You're not helping your own case here.
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Military airfields operate using UHF radio. If particularly busy then the tower controller may be manning both VHF and UHF and not have time or opportunity to reply on VHF as quickly as one might be used to. 
The VHF / UHF issue is irrelevant.
The hours of operation of UK military aerodromes should be publicly available in the UK Mil AIP. But that has now been hidden behind some dumb MoD sick-urity firewall....
So how are people expected to know the official hours of operation?
Anyway, some military aerodromes may have RAF Flying Club activity and/or Air Cadet flying activity outside their normal hours of operation. If these aerodromes (e.g. Benson) have an ATZ, then you may not enter it without permission. If the resident Flying Club is operating, even though they may be making normal RT calls in the circuit, they cannot approve ATZ entry.
Aerodromes such as Abingdon and Little Rissington, neither of which have ATZs, may have Air Cadet gliding activity. The only avoidance you are required to observe is the same as for any normal civil gliding site - although in the not-too-distant past Little Rissington seemed to think it was Heathrow at times...
The hours of operation of UK military aerodromes should be publicly available in the UK Mil AIP. But that has now been hidden behind some dumb MoD sick-urity firewall....
So how are people expected to know the official hours of operation?Anyway, some military aerodromes may have RAF Flying Club activity and/or Air Cadet flying activity outside their normal hours of operation. If these aerodromes (e.g. Benson) have an ATZ, then you may not enter it without permission. If the resident Flying Club is operating, even though they may be making normal RT calls in the circuit, they cannot approve ATZ entry.
Aerodromes such as Abingdon and Little Rissington, neither of which have ATZs, may have Air Cadet gliding activity. The only avoidance you are required to observe is the same as for any normal civil gliding site - although in the not-too-distant past Little Rissington seemed to think it was Heathrow at times...
Oh Shazbat!
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Agree with Ryan, an infringement is an infringement, but wouldn't a military base be NOTAMed if there was a UAS or similar active?
Also I have seen NOTAMs declaring a military airfield closed, I think it was over Easter that Leeming, Topcliffe et al were closed. So does the H24 rule apply then?
Also I have seen NOTAMs declaring a military airfield closed, I think it was over Easter that Leeming, Topcliffe et al were closed. So does the H24 rule apply then?
Also I have seen NOTAMs declaring a military airfield closed, I think it was over Easter that Leeming, Topcliffe et al were closed. So does the H24 rule apply then?
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At our gliding club when we hear an a/c calling the military station we are based at and don't get a reply 99% of the time the a/c declares it's intentions. If it is likely to conflict when transmit a polite notice reminding the atz is active and there are gliders and cables to 3000ft, that normally does the trick.
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It has been my understanding that "permission" is not required in order to enter an ATZ, merely that one should satisfy oneself (usually by radio but perhaps by telephone) that it is safe to do so. Is this not the case for military airfields?
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"permission" for ATZ entry
It has been my understanding that "permission" is not required in order to enter an ATZ, merely that one should satisfy oneself (usually by radio but perhaps by telephone) that it is safe to do so. Is this not the case for military airfields?
No, not really, it depends whether the ATZ in question has an ATC service or AFIS or Air/Ground Radio. For anywhere which has notified ATC, you need permission, I would think most military airfields provide an ATC service. See quote below from rule 45, rules of the air.
Flights within aerodrome traffic zones
45.—(1) Paragraphs (2) and (3) shall apply only in relation to those aerodromes described in Column 1 of Table 3 as are notified for the purposes of this rule and at such times as are specified in Column 2 of the Table.
Table 3
Column 1 Column 2
(a) A Government aerodrome
At such times as are notified
(b) An aerodrome having an air traffic control unit or flight information service unit
During the notified hours of watch of the air traffic control unit or the flight information service unit
(c) A licensed aerodrome having a means of two-way radio communication with aircraft
During the notified hours of watch of the air/ground station
(2) An aircraft shall not fly, take off or land within the aerodrome traffic zone of an aerodrome unless the commander of the aircraft has complied with paragraphs (3), (4) or (5), as appropriate.
(3) If the aerodrome has an air traffic control unit the commander shall obtain the permission of the air traffic control unit to enable the flight to be conducted safely within the zone.
(4) If the aerodrome has a flight information service unit the commander shall obtain information from the flight information service unit to enable the flight to be conducted safely within the zone.
(5) If there is no flight information service unit at the aerodrome the commander shall obtain information from the air/ground communication service to enable the flight to be conducted safely within the zone.
(6) The commander of an aircraft flying within the aerodrome traffic zone of an aerodrome shall—
(a)cause a continuous watch to be maintained on the appropriate radio frequency notified for communications at the aerodrome; or
(b)if this is not possible, cause a watch to be kept for such instructions as may be issued by visual means; and
(c)if the aircraft is fitted with means of communication by radio with the ground, communicate his position and height to the air traffic control unit, the flight information service unit or the air/ground communication service at the aerodrome (as the case may be) on entering the zone and immediately prior to leaving it.
45.—(1) Paragraphs (2) and (3) shall apply only in relation to those aerodromes described in Column 1 of Table 3 as are notified for the purposes of this rule and at such times as are specified in Column 2 of the Table.
Table 3
Column 1 Column 2
(a) A Government aerodrome
At such times as are notified
(b) An aerodrome having an air traffic control unit or flight information service unit
During the notified hours of watch of the air traffic control unit or the flight information service unit
(c) A licensed aerodrome having a means of two-way radio communication with aircraft
During the notified hours of watch of the air/ground station
(2) An aircraft shall not fly, take off or land within the aerodrome traffic zone of an aerodrome unless the commander of the aircraft has complied with paragraphs (3), (4) or (5), as appropriate.
(3) If the aerodrome has an air traffic control unit the commander shall obtain the permission of the air traffic control unit to enable the flight to be conducted safely within the zone.
(4) If the aerodrome has a flight information service unit the commander shall obtain information from the flight information service unit to enable the flight to be conducted safely within the zone.
(5) If there is no flight information service unit at the aerodrome the commander shall obtain information from the air/ground communication service to enable the flight to be conducted safely within the zone.
(6) The commander of an aircraft flying within the aerodrome traffic zone of an aerodrome shall—
(a)cause a continuous watch to be maintained on the appropriate radio frequency notified for communications at the aerodrome; or
(b)if this is not possible, cause a watch to be kept for such instructions as may be issued by visual means; and
(c)if the aircraft is fitted with means of communication by radio with the ground, communicate his position and height to the air traffic control unit, the flight information service unit or the air/ground communication service at the aerodrome (as the case may be) on entering the zone and immediately prior to leaving it.
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Thanks all for replies - interesting to see the views expressed...
BEagle like me operates from a RAFFCA club though in his case they have CAS as well. He's quite right, though - we monitor the radio but we can't approve access to the ATZ (how would we do that? illegal air to air comms or illegal unlicensed ground to air?). Fair enough, we were aware of her presence and indeed callsign (and anyway I could read the reg with binos from the clubhouse). I'm not interested in busting her - no useful purpose would be served - hence the reminder on here.
It seems to be a bit of Air Law that many people forget after the exam, that's all.
Tim
BEagle like me operates from a RAFFCA club though in his case they have CAS as well. He's quite right, though - we monitor the radio but we can't approve access to the ATZ (how would we do that? illegal air to air comms or illegal unlicensed ground to air?). Fair enough, we were aware of her presence and indeed callsign (and anyway I could read the reg with binos from the clubhouse). I'm not interested in busting her - no useful purpose would be served - hence the reminder on here.
It seems to be a bit of Air Law that many people forget after the exam, that's all.
Tim
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Halfbaked_Boy - a little to the south, glide from What-a-shame
Normally once a week we get an a/c calling up, no reply from station (as they are closed) and then stating they are going to motor through the overhead, the polite reminder really works as soon as you tell the the ATZ is active and that there are 5mm steel cables going up to 3000ft they normally scarper sharpish.
The calls that say they are cutting through a MATZ stub we tend to ignore, far enough away not to be at risk of getting cut in half by a cable.
Normally once a week we get an a/c calling up, no reply from station (as they are closed) and then stating they are going to motor through the overhead, the polite reminder really works as soon as you tell the the ATZ is active and that there are 5mm steel cables going up to 3000ft they normally scarper sharpish.
The calls that say they are cutting through a MATZ stub we tend to ignore, far enough away not to be at risk of getting cut in half by a cable.
I'm not interested in busting her - no useful purpose would be served - hence the reminder on here.
2 s
illegal air to air comms
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fbm
No, not really, it depends whether the ATZ in question has an ATC service or AFIS or Air/Ground Radio.
No, not really, it depends whether the ATZ in question has an ATC service or AFIS or Air/Ground Radio.
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If the ATZ is subject to ATC, but there is no ATC present at the time, how do the local based gliding clubs get a clearance to operate in it at those times 
How is a form of controlled airspace allowed without an ATC'er on duty to control it?
How is a form of controlled airspace allowed without an ATC'er on duty to control it?
It is quite simple:
1. The ATZ of a government aerodrome is active at such times as are notified (usually H24).
2. It is a breach of Rule 45 to take-off, land or fly within the ATZ without the permission of the relevant air traffic control unit.
3. If the relevant ATC unit is closed and it is not possible to obtain permission to fly within the ATZ then to do so is a breach of Rule 45.
4. Get used to it.
Locally based operators operate with the permission of the ATC unit although the unit may be closed at the time of operation. Rule 45 does not say that permission must be sought by radio.
1. The ATZ of a government aerodrome is active at such times as are notified (usually H24).
2. It is a breach of Rule 45 to take-off, land or fly within the ATZ without the permission of the relevant air traffic control unit.
3. If the relevant ATC unit is closed and it is not possible to obtain permission to fly within the ATZ then to do so is a breach of Rule 45.
4. Get used to it.
Locally based operators operate with the permission of the ATC unit although the unit may be closed at the time of operation. Rule 45 does not say that permission must be sought by radio.
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Please can everyone be aware that cables go up a long way, the highest I have had is 2850 ft, that is nearly 1000ft higher than the ATZ we operate in. If you see a glider site on your map beware of this.
Also glider/tugs combos normally go to a minium of 2000ft agl, quite often more
Sorry for thread creap.
Also glider/tugs combos normally go to a minium of 2000ft agl, quite often more
Sorry for thread creap.