Do they realy care?
Guest
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Do they realy care?
Flyer magazine has published the names of airfields that will and will not waive GA landing fees in case of emergency or precautionary landing.
The following is the list with name of the 29 fields that will not waive the fees.
What response the GA community should take, a boycott maybe?
The 29 non-acceptors:
Aberdeen
Belfast International
Biggin Hill
Birmingham
Blackpool
Bristol
Cardiff
Carlisle
Crowfield
Dundee
Earls Colne
Edinburgh
Exeter
Filton
Glasgow
Gloucestershire
Humberside
Isle of Man
Leeds/Bradfrod
Liverpool
London Luton
London Stansted
Manchester
Norwich
Plockton
Prestwick
Scatsta
Sheffield
Teesside
The following is the list with name of the 29 fields that will not waive the fees.
What response the GA community should take, a boycott maybe?
The 29 non-acceptors:
Aberdeen
Belfast International
Biggin Hill
Birmingham
Blackpool
Bristol
Cardiff
Carlisle
Crowfield
Dundee
Earls Colne
Edinburgh
Exeter
Filton
Glasgow
Gloucestershire
Humberside
Isle of Man
Leeds/Bradfrod
Liverpool
London Luton
London Stansted
Manchester
Norwich
Plockton
Prestwick
Scatsta
Sheffield
Teesside
Guest
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I'm in two minds about this one.
In the event of some difficulty the last thing on your mind should be if it will cost you a few quid to land somewhere.
On the other hand why should people subsidise your emergency?
In the greater scheme of things does it really matter? Upon reflection I feel that it is a well intentioned idea (courtesy of Charles Strasser and AOPA) which matters not a whit.
In the event of some difficulty the last thing on your mind should be if it will cost you a few quid to land somewhere.
On the other hand why should people subsidise your emergency?
In the greater scheme of things does it really matter? Upon reflection I feel that it is a well intentioned idea (courtesy of Charles Strasser and AOPA) which matters not a whit.
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Chaliban
I would agree with you if the list would contain the names of Luton, Stanstead, Manchester etc. But this list contains airfields such as; Earls Colne, Exeter, Norwich,
Gloucestershire and Biggin Hill. Most of them owe their existence to the GA community. We are happy (well, not always) to pay there landing fees and spend our money with them every weekend, but when we are in a need I don’t think that it will be too difficult for them to be generous and waive the fees. It can happen that you, me or someone else will run short of fuel, where will you land, in an airfield that charges you the landing fees or the one that will waive them? I will be happy to buy my 370l of 100LL and put my money in the pocket of the one that waives the fees. This is not because the £10 or £15 makes a big difference, but because that airfield wants to encourages you and me to be safe and make the right decision. It is not a question of £10 or even £20, it is a stand about their morals and maybe, what they think about those who provide them with their livelihood. Last year my way was blocked by a thunderstorm. I have landed at Southend, stayed on the ground for nearly an hour and paid £35-£40 landing fees. I feel that I made the right decision, but there were other (two) a/c circling overheads. They also feel that they made the right decision because they saved the money and the storm went the other way, but what if this was not the case and the storm would come Southend way?
I would agree with you if the list would contain the names of Luton, Stanstead, Manchester etc. But this list contains airfields such as; Earls Colne, Exeter, Norwich,
Gloucestershire and Biggin Hill. Most of them owe their existence to the GA community. We are happy (well, not always) to pay there landing fees and spend our money with them every weekend, but when we are in a need I don’t think that it will be too difficult for them to be generous and waive the fees. It can happen that you, me or someone else will run short of fuel, where will you land, in an airfield that charges you the landing fees or the one that will waive them? I will be happy to buy my 370l of 100LL and put my money in the pocket of the one that waives the fees. This is not because the £10 or £15 makes a big difference, but because that airfield wants to encourages you and me to be safe and make the right decision. It is not a question of £10 or even £20, it is a stand about their morals and maybe, what they think about those who provide them with their livelihood. Last year my way was blocked by a thunderstorm. I have landed at Southend, stayed on the ground for nearly an hour and paid £35-£40 landing fees. I feel that I made the right decision, but there were other (two) a/c circling overheads. They also feel that they made the right decision because they saved the money and the storm went the other way, but what if this was not the case and the storm would come Southend way?
Guest
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Fair comment AC-DC and you make some good points. I know that a couple of the airfields 'shamed' by Flyer do, in fact, offer free landings in time of need. Because they have done so for years they simply didn't respond to the AOPA questionaire hence have ended up on the roll of infamy...
Guest
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I did an air turnback to Norwich a couple of years ago as a weather diversion. They knocked 50% off the landing fee, no parking fee (we stayed until 1400 the next day) and did a great job booking us into the hotel and even transport the 200 yds from the aircraft to the hotel (walking would've been quicker!). They are not free, granted, but the service was worth the £8 it cost.
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AC/DC
As an ATCO at one of the airports on the 'shamed' list, I must put the other side of the argument. If you fly from A to B then you expect to pay a landing fee at B...so if you divert to C then why shouldn't you pay one there too? Your argument about morals isn't true...those GA airfields that you mention find it extremely difficult to make ends meet from flying revenue. The income from GA doesn't go anywhere near the cost of Licencing, ATC, Fire service etc., my Company only survives because it has an extensive non-aviation property portfolio. What you're effectively saying is that we shouldn't charge for these services when pilots use/need them most. Furthermore, the system is sadly open to abuse. I can recall two occaisions already this year, when an aircraft has 'diverted' to my airfield being unable to get into a nearby strip (no facilities) due weather. On both occaisions, the pilots concerned had phoned my unit (from overseas) for weather and were passed TAF's and actuals which clearly showed there was absolutely no chance of getting into the strip. Each announced on their safe, radar vectored, IFR arrival on a hard, lit runway at my airfield that "this was a diversion...you won't be charging us will you?". Nobody likes spending their hard earned cash...and pilots are notorious for it...but would you expect an emergency plumber to stop your water leak for free?
My Airport tries to offer a first rate service for GA...as you rightly say, we depend on your custom for our livelihood we try to find a balance between sensible fees and facilities and will always greet you with a friendly smile! I'm a PPL too (night and IMC) and on the one occaision that I have had to divert, (into Bournemouth due to an alternator failure) above cloud in very busy airspace I was afforded excellent service, a priority approach, to be met on the ground by (uneccesary but welcomed) Fire engines. I was offered every assistance, an engineer, use of a phone etc. and the landing fee was waived but I would have happily paid it, it would have been worth every penny...and, how much it would cost was of absolutely no significance to me at the decision making stage. Frankly, I find it difficult to accept that anyone would put their safety before their wallet in this environment. A boycott is a bad idea...with GA being forced out of all the regional airports and the NIMBY's closing all the strips, now is the time to champion GA airfields...use them or lose them!
...incidentley, we have the best home made cakes in the UK
As an ATCO at one of the airports on the 'shamed' list, I must put the other side of the argument. If you fly from A to B then you expect to pay a landing fee at B...so if you divert to C then why shouldn't you pay one there too? Your argument about morals isn't true...those GA airfields that you mention find it extremely difficult to make ends meet from flying revenue. The income from GA doesn't go anywhere near the cost of Licencing, ATC, Fire service etc., my Company only survives because it has an extensive non-aviation property portfolio. What you're effectively saying is that we shouldn't charge for these services when pilots use/need them most. Furthermore, the system is sadly open to abuse. I can recall two occaisions already this year, when an aircraft has 'diverted' to my airfield being unable to get into a nearby strip (no facilities) due weather. On both occaisions, the pilots concerned had phoned my unit (from overseas) for weather and were passed TAF's and actuals which clearly showed there was absolutely no chance of getting into the strip. Each announced on their safe, radar vectored, IFR arrival on a hard, lit runway at my airfield that "this was a diversion...you won't be charging us will you?". Nobody likes spending their hard earned cash...and pilots are notorious for it...but would you expect an emergency plumber to stop your water leak for free?
My Airport tries to offer a first rate service for GA...as you rightly say, we depend on your custom for our livelihood we try to find a balance between sensible fees and facilities and will always greet you with a friendly smile! I'm a PPL too (night and IMC) and on the one occaision that I have had to divert, (into Bournemouth due to an alternator failure) above cloud in very busy airspace I was afforded excellent service, a priority approach, to be met on the ground by (uneccesary but welcomed) Fire engines. I was offered every assistance, an engineer, use of a phone etc. and the landing fee was waived but I would have happily paid it, it would have been worth every penny...and, how much it would cost was of absolutely no significance to me at the decision making stage. Frankly, I find it difficult to accept that anyone would put their safety before their wallet in this environment. A boycott is a bad idea...with GA being forced out of all the regional airports and the NIMBY's closing all the strips, now is the time to champion GA airfields...use them or lose them!
...incidentley, we have the best home made cakes in the UK
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Matspart3
I understand what you say and I must admit that the financial situation of many airfields is a strong and valid point. However, when one wants to buy/sell a business there is an entry in the valuation of the business, this is Good Will, usually it worth a lot of money if you can demonstrate that you have it.
Look at the free landing as a P.R exercise If you help someone when he/she is most in need, that person will never forget it and come back in a better day to have your cakes and tea, if you will not help, it will be the other way around.
We are talking about small number of landings and the lost revenue is minimal.
Regarding the abuse, you always find some people that will destroy something good. The only way to stop it is buy charging and letting them know that they did not fool you, at the end of day (I’m not a solicitor) you have the right to refuse free landing if you are not convinced that it was a real emergency or diversion.
I understand what you say and I must admit that the financial situation of many airfields is a strong and valid point. However, when one wants to buy/sell a business there is an entry in the valuation of the business, this is Good Will, usually it worth a lot of money if you can demonstrate that you have it.
Look at the free landing as a P.R exercise If you help someone when he/she is most in need, that person will never forget it and come back in a better day to have your cakes and tea, if you will not help, it will be the other way around.
We are talking about small number of landings and the lost revenue is minimal.
Regarding the abuse, you always find some people that will destroy something good. The only way to stop it is buy charging and letting them know that they did not fool you, at the end of day (I’m not a solicitor) you have the right to refuse free landing if you are not convinced that it was a real emergency or diversion.
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I am often amazed by the sheer lack of business acumen demonstrated by some airfields and the 29 mentioned above includes some. As a private pilot / owner, I choose where I go. If I am going to be charged £10 to land, I will avoid the place and go somewhere else if I can. (How many pubs and hotels do you know who charge you to pitch up and use their car-park?)
Secondly, when a pilot is facing a diversion decision, the financial standing of the local airfield is not on his mind. But the cost of landing there most definitely is. It's not just the landing fee, its the taxis, telephone calls, overnight parking charges, accommodation etc. which weigh on the mind and can (and do) cause push-on-itis. Twice I've had to divert because of weather this year. Once into Cranfield - they couldn't have been nicer. No fees and no parking charges as long as I flew out again at MY first opportunity which was 3 days later. I spent a small fortune in the cafe and I will DEFINITELY visit them next time I can. And pay the landing fees! This testimony alone must be worth a landing fee.The other time was in France. 'Oh no M'sieu. We don't charge single engines, only twins.....'
Finally, Conington. I called in by car the other day. Nice club, nice bar, good food. Ideal for me commuting up and down the country. But not for a tenner a time! So the only time I'll call in there is when I'm in the car.....
Airfields are years behind the rest of modern businesses in their approach to their customers. They've got to make it worthwhile for pilots to fly in, otherwise they will remain tumbleweed and nostalgia. Pah!
Secondly, when a pilot is facing a diversion decision, the financial standing of the local airfield is not on his mind. But the cost of landing there most definitely is. It's not just the landing fee, its the taxis, telephone calls, overnight parking charges, accommodation etc. which weigh on the mind and can (and do) cause push-on-itis. Twice I've had to divert because of weather this year. Once into Cranfield - they couldn't have been nicer. No fees and no parking charges as long as I flew out again at MY first opportunity which was 3 days later. I spent a small fortune in the cafe and I will DEFINITELY visit them next time I can. And pay the landing fees! This testimony alone must be worth a landing fee.The other time was in France. 'Oh no M'sieu. We don't charge single engines, only twins.....'
Finally, Conington. I called in by car the other day. Nice club, nice bar, good food. Ideal for me commuting up and down the country. But not for a tenner a time! So the only time I'll call in there is when I'm in the car.....
Airfields are years behind the rest of modern businesses in their approach to their customers. They've got to make it worthwhile for pilots to fly in, otherwise they will remain tumbleweed and nostalgia. Pah!
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I find it hard to believe that anyone would let their decision making in a potentially dangerous situation (bad weather, low fuel, electrical fault, whatever) be influenced by the cost of landing, but perhaps I am being naive (after all, some people apparently seem unkeen on going around because it costs more).
As for landing fees generally, I really cannot see the objection to paying what is usually no more than £10 for using someone's facilities. How do those who object to landing fees propose that small arfields pay for their lawn mowers, fire trucks etc?
As for landing fees generally, I really cannot see the objection to paying what is usually no more than £10 for using someone's facilities. How do those who object to landing fees propose that small arfields pay for their lawn mowers, fire trucks etc?
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FNG
You miss the point. We are not talking money here, we are talking attitude. If the option is available I will choose the airfield that will not charge me, if I don’t, I land whatever the cost is. My life worth more than £10, £20 or even £2569.99.
Pilots are people and people have memory. If you help me when I am desperate I always be at your debt, if you won’t you will never see me again. The waived charge is minimal, we do not divert every day. Airfields like Cranfield will see more diversions due to the ILS facility, but Earls Colne? Have they got more than a piece of grass to offer? What is wrong with them allowing a free landing? The £10 will not brake their bank or mine, but it will create a lot of good will and I might come back.
Two years ago I flew a rented Archer to La Baule where I discovered that the nose wheel was broken (and no, it wasn’t me who broke it). A guy from the small club on the field who was on his way home put his overhaul on and reproduced the needed part (about two hours work). They also provided me with tools and a crane so I can fit it. Before departure they provided me with 1.5l of oil, all at no charge and with a big smile. I have returned the next day with bottles of wine and boxes of chocolate paid my landing fees and was happy as one can be. Now I fly there every year. It is also much nicer than Le Touquet etc.
Can you see it happening in the UK?
You miss the point. We are not talking money here, we are talking attitude. If the option is available I will choose the airfield that will not charge me, if I don’t, I land whatever the cost is. My life worth more than £10, £20 or even £2569.99.
Pilots are people and people have memory. If you help me when I am desperate I always be at your debt, if you won’t you will never see me again. The waived charge is minimal, we do not divert every day. Airfields like Cranfield will see more diversions due to the ILS facility, but Earls Colne? Have they got more than a piece of grass to offer? What is wrong with them allowing a free landing? The £10 will not brake their bank or mine, but it will create a lot of good will and I might come back.
Two years ago I flew a rented Archer to La Baule where I discovered that the nose wheel was broken (and no, it wasn’t me who broke it). A guy from the small club on the field who was on his way home put his overhaul on and reproduced the needed part (about two hours work). They also provided me with tools and a crane so I can fit it. Before departure they provided me with 1.5l of oil, all at no charge and with a big smile. I have returned the next day with bottles of wine and boxes of chocolate paid my landing fees and was happy as one can be. Now I fly there every year. It is also much nicer than Le Touquet etc.
Can you see it happening in the UK?
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AC-DC, Totally agree - more businesses should appreciate the value of goodwill. If they cannot waive the fee altogether at least reduce it to a reasonable level. Blackbushe has seen more visitors in the past 2 months than ever subsequent to reducing w/e fees to £5 for singles until end Feb - lets hope it continues - I am based there but it is so nice to see other people and a variety of aircraft arriving. It is this type of attitude that keeps GA alive.
BTW - La Baule - What a great place - have been there twice now, last time Aug Bank Holiday last year. We had 5 aircaft with 16 people arriving "in convoy". The treatment was excellent - even to the extent of the chap behind the desk putting up with us asking him to take a group photo on 16 separate cameras of us all in front of the museum hangar - this photo adorns my desk at work!
A2
BTW - La Baule - What a great place - have been there twice now, last time Aug Bank Holiday last year. We had 5 aircaft with 16 people arriving "in convoy". The treatment was excellent - even to the extent of the chap behind the desk putting up with us asking him to take a group photo on 16 separate cameras of us all in front of the museum hangar - this photo adorns my desk at work!
A2
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What is it about being on the Dark Side of the Atlantic that causes everybody to suffer a total lack of business sense? In Canada only a couple of major airports make the lighties pay to land, and that's a matter of traffic management rather than revenue. The only fields here that charge fees only do so if you've over 10,000lb. Why do they let us land for free? Because they want us to buy gas & oil and spend some time in the restaurant, or maybe the airport is run by a municipality that wants us to stay in a hotel nearby and spend even more cash. Most airports here will even waive overnight tie-down fees if you buy gas from them. In the US it's even better- they'll drive you into town for sighseeing and pick you up later, all no charge. So my advice to airport operators "over there" is to stop nickel-and-diming and start acting like a business- I'm willing to bet a loonie that the first UK airport to abolish landing fees will pull in more revenue next year than ever before.
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Nuke the rainforest- it's more efficient than logging.
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Nuke the rainforest- it's more efficient than logging.
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I think a lot of the problem stems from a fundamental difference in attitudes and philosophy between here and the US. In the US, Federal rather than state taxes fund the Air Traffic Services, as a result of the principle that the safety enjoyed by the public, be they ground or airborne, is in the interests of everybody. Aviation, light or heavy is rightly regarded as just another form of transportation. However, over here, the attitude is still full of stuffed shirt arrogance perhaps fuelled by, dare I say it, envy, and the NIMBY syndrome, which appears rife everywhere. So, All of us pilots, must pay for the services that we use, but which benefits all of society. Dont get me wrong, I am not advocating that we should not pay at all, just a fairer amount. I am happy to contribute in my taxes to the provisions of the Library (tax funded) and the Leisure Centre/Sports Hall (tax funded) even though I dont use them. Whats wrong with some state aid to assist airports. Do they all fail to see that GA brings benefits to all sectors of the community. Even the Tree-huggers and Bunny-kissers who are forever bleating on about wildlife would be pleased to know that it flourishes in Airside areas prohibited to the public. Oh well, we shall all reap the crop of our apathy I suppose.
Tailwinds
Tailwinds
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SkyYacht, the subsidies in the US aren't as high as they seem- much of the ifrastructure is covered by levies on the industry itself, such as fuel taxes and surcharges on airline tickets. In Canada the air navigation system and airports are entirely user-pay and they manage to do it without nickel-and-diming the GA community. Forget those old "common good" bromides about making other people pay for your recreation- that kind of nonsense results in less money for aviation and more in the pockets of those civil servants who make a career out of shuffling the deck. From what I've seen in the threads about landing fees, the bottom line is that the airport managers in the UK don't have a clue how to run a business- a little creativity can go a long way. Kudos to the airport operator over there who discovered lower fees=higher volume. I hope for your sake that they've started a trend.
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Nuke the rainforest- it's more efficient than logging.
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Nuke the rainforest- it's more efficient than logging.
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Squawk 8888 - way-to-go! Couldn't agree more. BTW, I went to Blackbushe last year to see if it would be worth my while commuting in there from 'oop north' since I work in the west of London. The duty ATC bod was a miserable b*stard: he couldn't have cared less about what I was looking for - the landing fee and parking fees were declared and that was that - are you still here....
I vowed then and there never to go back - and I won't.
Denham is a nice airfield apparently run by a pretty fierce lady who keeps an eye on proceedings from her house on the perimeter. Woe betide you if you do a low circuit or try taking off when the cloud's too low. They are VMC only; no cafe (although the Biggles Restaurant is OK for formal eats)but you can walk to the station and be in central London in 40 minutes. The new ATC regime however has caught Blackbu!!!!is - come back Nick, all is forgiven!
I vowed then and there never to go back - and I won't.
Denham is a nice airfield apparently run by a pretty fierce lady who keeps an eye on proceedings from her house on the perimeter. Woe betide you if you do a low circuit or try taking off when the cloud's too low. They are VMC only; no cafe (although the Biggles Restaurant is OK for formal eats)but you can walk to the station and be in central London in 40 minutes. The new ATC regime however has caught Blackbu!!!!is - come back Nick, all is forgiven!
