Recovering expenses owed for a ferry flight
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Recovering expenses owed for a ferry flight
Evening all,
Here's a hypothetical situation: you're asked to ferry an aircraft from A to B, to arrive before a set date. Weather dictates that this trip can only be done four days before the specified latest arrival date, and the trip will take two whole days. All is good so far.
You arrive to find that the aircraft hasn't been flown for six months, although is still in check, and that the aircraft's C of A expires in three days time, which you weren't informed about. Just splendid. Upon going up for a quick checkout flight prior to departing on the ferry flight you get a gear unsafe warning, but land without incident. The subsequent rectification work (micro-switch and locking mechanism problems through lack of use) takes up the entire day, ruling out a departure until tomorrow. You go taxi for a test flight to make sure that the problems have been rectified, but now there is an issue with the RPM seeking, so you taxi back in again and wait another hour whilst this is sorted out. Very confidence-inspiring, as you can imagine. You finally get airborne, and all seems to be alright this time around.
The next morning, the weather isn't suitable for VFR flight, or even safe flight under any rules for that matter in an aircraft with no anti-icing capability; low cloud with tops extending to your cruising altitude of FL090, a freezing level of FL060, embedded CBs en-route and fog forecast at your destination, and it's not forecast to be flyable the next day either.
You need to be home for work in a few days time, so this weather, coupled with the fact that the C of A is expiring in two days time, the impending threat of volcanic ash shutting the surrounding airspace and stopping commercial flights back home and an aircraft that you by now have very little faith in leads you to make the only real sensible decision to cancel the trip and get a commercial flight back to the UK.
Now, here’s the bad bit. You’ve run up around £1,000 of expenses on this trip so far, but only ask the owner to pay for the fuel that you uplifted into the aircraft, the extra night’s stay in the hotel at the airfield due to the aircraft not being ready, and a few other little things, totalling around £400. The owner debates this, claiming that you could and should have flown when you know that it was simply safe not to, and after replying with a detailed message about all of your reasons for leaving the aircraft where it was i.e. being lied to about the aircraft’s condition, the numerous technical faults that kept cropping up, the weather being decidedly suicidal etc you receive a response saying that he will contact you soon. You chase the owner up, but he does not reply for months. Attempts at phoning, texting and e-mailing yield no results You’re thoroughly insulted by the owner’s attitude and behaviour, and want to get the expenses back that you’re owed.
That’s the scenario, so in this situation how would you go about getting your money back? The way I see it there are a few options:
· Take the owner to court (there was no written agreement for this flight, only verbal)
· Publicly name and shame the owner/operator (the owner wants to operate this aircraft for non-capital group use)
· Wait until the aircraft arrives at it’s destination airfield, then take it for an unannounced flight to burn off the expenses you’re owed (you’re still on the insurance)
· Impound the aircraft by putting a lock and chain around the propeller or something else along those lines
Based on the above I’m specifically interested in the legalities of the last two options if anyone might be able to help? It would also be good to hear your opinions on which is the best/most effective course of action, or if anyone has other ideas it would all be much appreciated
Here's a hypothetical situation: you're asked to ferry an aircraft from A to B, to arrive before a set date. Weather dictates that this trip can only be done four days before the specified latest arrival date, and the trip will take two whole days. All is good so far.
You arrive to find that the aircraft hasn't been flown for six months, although is still in check, and that the aircraft's C of A expires in three days time, which you weren't informed about. Just splendid. Upon going up for a quick checkout flight prior to departing on the ferry flight you get a gear unsafe warning, but land without incident. The subsequent rectification work (micro-switch and locking mechanism problems through lack of use) takes up the entire day, ruling out a departure until tomorrow. You go taxi for a test flight to make sure that the problems have been rectified, but now there is an issue with the RPM seeking, so you taxi back in again and wait another hour whilst this is sorted out. Very confidence-inspiring, as you can imagine. You finally get airborne, and all seems to be alright this time around.
The next morning, the weather isn't suitable for VFR flight, or even safe flight under any rules for that matter in an aircraft with no anti-icing capability; low cloud with tops extending to your cruising altitude of FL090, a freezing level of FL060, embedded CBs en-route and fog forecast at your destination, and it's not forecast to be flyable the next day either.
You need to be home for work in a few days time, so this weather, coupled with the fact that the C of A is expiring in two days time, the impending threat of volcanic ash shutting the surrounding airspace and stopping commercial flights back home and an aircraft that you by now have very little faith in leads you to make the only real sensible decision to cancel the trip and get a commercial flight back to the UK.
Now, here’s the bad bit. You’ve run up around £1,000 of expenses on this trip so far, but only ask the owner to pay for the fuel that you uplifted into the aircraft, the extra night’s stay in the hotel at the airfield due to the aircraft not being ready, and a few other little things, totalling around £400. The owner debates this, claiming that you could and should have flown when you know that it was simply safe not to, and after replying with a detailed message about all of your reasons for leaving the aircraft where it was i.e. being lied to about the aircraft’s condition, the numerous technical faults that kept cropping up, the weather being decidedly suicidal etc you receive a response saying that he will contact you soon. You chase the owner up, but he does not reply for months. Attempts at phoning, texting and e-mailing yield no results You’re thoroughly insulted by the owner’s attitude and behaviour, and want to get the expenses back that you’re owed.
That’s the scenario, so in this situation how would you go about getting your money back? The way I see it there are a few options:
· Take the owner to court (there was no written agreement for this flight, only verbal)
· Publicly name and shame the owner/operator (the owner wants to operate this aircraft for non-capital group use)
· Wait until the aircraft arrives at it’s destination airfield, then take it for an unannounced flight to burn off the expenses you’re owed (you’re still on the insurance)
· Impound the aircraft by putting a lock and chain around the propeller or something else along those lines
Based on the above I’m specifically interested in the legalities of the last two options if anyone might be able to help? It would also be good to hear your opinions on which is the best/most effective course of action, or if anyone has other ideas it would all be much appreciated
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OxEagle
Welcome to ferry flying and other flying . We have all been there!!! The only thing to do is to get a pot of money upfront.
I had two spurious operators one owed me £10K I ended up getting £3k back. The other £6.5K and I got £3.4 K back!!!
In Another trans continental Ferry I refused to land a jet with what would have left me with 300 ibs of fuel reserves remaining a side and that was if the winds didnt increase on route. I had the diversion and expensive fuel costs at the diversion removed off the pitifull money paid and this leg was 90% over water. All because the ferry company wanted cheap fuel and landing charges.
Your best is to go to a small claims court but learn from your mistakes and demand a percentage up front so that you are in the driving seat.
In the lower echelons of commercial aviation there are many who will offer the earth until it comes to pay.
It is so easy to look through rose coloured glasses if you are desperate for work and flying and to get taken in by empty promises.
On the last two questions? the first you would get done for theft the second isnt easy unless the aircraft is resident with you and you release it with payement of bills. Ie its in your maintainance hangar, maintentance is owed to you and you wont release the aircraft until debts are settled. in a third parties parking it all gets rather dicey?
Pace
Welcome to ferry flying and other flying . We have all been there!!! The only thing to do is to get a pot of money upfront.
I had two spurious operators one owed me £10K I ended up getting £3k back. The other £6.5K and I got £3.4 K back!!!
In Another trans continental Ferry I refused to land a jet with what would have left me with 300 ibs of fuel reserves remaining a side and that was if the winds didnt increase on route. I had the diversion and expensive fuel costs at the diversion removed off the pitifull money paid and this leg was 90% over water. All because the ferry company wanted cheap fuel and landing charges.
Your best is to go to a small claims court but learn from your mistakes and demand a percentage up front so that you are in the driving seat.
In the lower echelons of commercial aviation there are many who will offer the earth until it comes to pay.
It is so easy to look through rose coloured glasses if you are desperate for work and flying and to get taken in by empty promises.
On the last two questions? the first you would get done for theft the second isnt easy unless the aircraft is resident with you and you release it with payement of bills. Ie its in your maintainance hangar, maintentance is owed to you and you wont release the aircraft until debts are settled. in a third parties parking it all gets rather dicey?
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 20th Jul 2010 at 10:01.
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Oxeagle,
If this all happened in England then you have the excellent, pain free, option of the small claims court. it used to be up to £5000 (not sure what it is now). For a fee of probably less than £100 you will have the satisfaction of a civil summons landing on the desk of your (hypothetical???) owner, which he/she will have to respond to in 28 days or they will by default "lose" the case.
You are protected against further costs, up to and including the first hearing which will take place in front of a judge (of some sort). Only after that and assuming no agreement/settlement is reached will you be liable to legal costs so you can bail out at that stage if you get cold feet.
At the very least it is a first class way of grabbing someones attention and when I did it over a dodgy car I was sold about ten years ago I got a stroppy phone call the day the summons arrived, followed by a cheque for the full amount 24 hours later.
All very satisfying.
There is a small claims court in Scotland, but I have not used it, so can't comment on if it operates the same way. I think it does not go up to the same amount as the English one.
PS Don't worry about the lack of agreement or otherwise. The small claims application form merely requires you to state your case and then this forms the basis for the summons. The validity of your case is not questioned until the first hearing, by which time the owner may have chucked the towel in.
PPS If you win any part of your claim you get the application fee as well.
If this all happened in England then you have the excellent, pain free, option of the small claims court. it used to be up to £5000 (not sure what it is now). For a fee of probably less than £100 you will have the satisfaction of a civil summons landing on the desk of your (hypothetical???) owner, which he/she will have to respond to in 28 days or they will by default "lose" the case.
You are protected against further costs, up to and including the first hearing which will take place in front of a judge (of some sort). Only after that and assuming no agreement/settlement is reached will you be liable to legal costs so you can bail out at that stage if you get cold feet.
At the very least it is a first class way of grabbing someones attention and when I did it over a dodgy car I was sold about ten years ago I got a stroppy phone call the day the summons arrived, followed by a cheque for the full amount 24 hours later.
All very satisfying.
There is a small claims court in Scotland, but I have not used it, so can't comment on if it operates the same way. I think it does not go up to the same amount as the English one.
PS Don't worry about the lack of agreement or otherwise. The small claims application form merely requires you to state your case and then this forms the basis for the summons. The validity of your case is not questioned until the first hearing, by which time the owner may have chucked the towel in.
PPS If you win any part of your claim you get the application fee as well.
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The British Small Claims Court is not what it purports to be. BE WARNED. The system is well stacked in favour of the bad payer. You may win and get a judgement but that does not mean you will get paid. If the debtor simply ignores the court then be prepared to spend a lot more money chasing the debtor and still get nothing at the end. In my case on top of that I was caught by a major "cock-up" in the paperwork issued by the court staff after a judge had handed out his decision in my favour, and my only remedy was to start the whole process all over again because the court staff cannot be identified nor can anyone on the court staff be held liable for such "administrative" errors.
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I used the "Money claim online" from the small claims court once. I was doing some work for someone who was all friendly, nice and happy with the work performed and the costs it was costing. I sent him the bill and he decided to refuse to pay stating that the work I did was sub standard and too expensive. I had supplied parts as well which he decided to keep and didn't want to return.
I almost let it go as it was about £500 and was going to put it down as one of those lessons in life, but this little C*** really peed me off and as I had worked hard for him I thought f**k it and filed a case against him after reading about MCO on the Flyer Forums.
Fantastic, he got the summons, including an extra 20% for non payment by invoice date (which I just made up specially for him
) and the fees (about £30?)...Within a couple of days I had a phone call saying he was going to pay, and a day later I got the cheque.
Interestingly the summons I believe affected this persons credit rating too
I did all the usual stuff first like write to him asking for payment and sending it by recorded delivery etc...gave him 28 days to pay, etc.....I also didn't have a written contract with him, just a verbal agreement. My first instinct was to go around there with a baseball bat and break his head, but that is a very bad idea.
Had he not paid, I'd have just dropped it, but a Gypsy Warning to people like this who CAN pay but refuse to pay is often enough to scare them into paying. Certainly worth a shot for £30.
Good luck!
I almost let it go as it was about £500 and was going to put it down as one of those lessons in life, but this little C*** really peed me off and as I had worked hard for him I thought f**k it and filed a case against him after reading about MCO on the Flyer Forums.
Fantastic, he got the summons, including an extra 20% for non payment by invoice date (which I just made up specially for him
) and the fees (about £30?)...Within a couple of days I had a phone call saying he was going to pay, and a day later I got the cheque.Interestingly the summons I believe affected this persons credit rating too
I did all the usual stuff first like write to him asking for payment and sending it by recorded delivery etc...gave him 28 days to pay, etc.....I also didn't have a written contract with him, just a verbal agreement. My first instinct was to go around there with a baseball bat and break his head, but that is a very bad idea.
Had he not paid, I'd have just dropped it, but a Gypsy Warning to people like this who CAN pay but refuse to pay is often enough to scare them into paying. Certainly worth a shot for £30.
Good luck!
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Always ready to play devils advocate...
In this particular case, you may not have a case at all. Let me explain.
It is generally understood that ferry flying a non-IFR, non-deiced aircraft with a range that's barely sufficient for the trip, and no capability to outclimb the weather (ie. typical North Atlantic ferry flying of light singles and twins) is a tricky business, and very, very dependent on the weather. It is therefore very uncommon to specify in the contract (verbal agreement) "to arrive before a set date."
You don't specify the reason for this set date but it may be crucial in this case. If, for instance, the reason was an air show, trade show or something else that was fixed in time and the owner lost a lot of trade, or didn't make the sale, because the aircraft did not arrive in time, he may well have a case for claiming that you failed your end of the bargain.
Whether a court is going to follow that reasoning will depend on a number of factors. The reason for this set date itself, but also the fact that you knew that reason or not, and were willingly accepting that you'd run a risk in making the set date. Plus of course the amount of information the owner gave you about the airworthiness of the aircraft, whether you phoned up the owner in the meantime discussing options when it became clear that the date might not be made, and so forth. And, of course, the agreement itself. Were you going to get paid a fixed amount, expenses included, when the aircraft would arrive in time, or were expenses separate? And in the latter case, do your actual expenses match the estimate you were given?
What may also be a factor is the relative experience you and the owner have with ferry flights. If you've done hundreds of them you should know the pitfalls and the risks. If this was a first for the owner he or she may have no clue whatsoever about whether a ferry flight on a fixed date was doable and you should have informed them about it.
At this stage, I would talk to a lawyer, not to some anonymous blokes on an internet forum. Small claims court sounds good too but the risk is that if you don't present the case well, so that the judge is able to reference the correct legal articles, you could lose on a technicality. Lawyers are there to prevent that. And typically the first meeting with a lawyer is free.
Do NOT publicly name&shame the operator as you may be sued for libel. Do NOT take, impound, disable or otherwise make the aircraft unavailable to the owner (or unsafe to fly) without a written court order, or you may be sued for theft.
In this particular case, you may not have a case at all. Let me explain.
It is generally understood that ferry flying a non-IFR, non-deiced aircraft with a range that's barely sufficient for the trip, and no capability to outclimb the weather (ie. typical North Atlantic ferry flying of light singles and twins) is a tricky business, and very, very dependent on the weather. It is therefore very uncommon to specify in the contract (verbal agreement) "to arrive before a set date."
You don't specify the reason for this set date but it may be crucial in this case. If, for instance, the reason was an air show, trade show or something else that was fixed in time and the owner lost a lot of trade, or didn't make the sale, because the aircraft did not arrive in time, he may well have a case for claiming that you failed your end of the bargain.
Whether a court is going to follow that reasoning will depend on a number of factors. The reason for this set date itself, but also the fact that you knew that reason or not, and were willingly accepting that you'd run a risk in making the set date. Plus of course the amount of information the owner gave you about the airworthiness of the aircraft, whether you phoned up the owner in the meantime discussing options when it became clear that the date might not be made, and so forth. And, of course, the agreement itself. Were you going to get paid a fixed amount, expenses included, when the aircraft would arrive in time, or were expenses separate? And in the latter case, do your actual expenses match the estimate you were given?
What may also be a factor is the relative experience you and the owner have with ferry flights. If you've done hundreds of them you should know the pitfalls and the risks. If this was a first for the owner he or she may have no clue whatsoever about whether a ferry flight on a fixed date was doable and you should have informed them about it.
At this stage, I would talk to a lawyer, not to some anonymous blokes on an internet forum. Small claims court sounds good too but the risk is that if you don't present the case well, so that the judge is able to reference the correct legal articles, you could lose on a technicality. Lawyers are there to prevent that. And typically the first meeting with a lawyer is free.
Do NOT publicly name&shame the operator as you may be sued for libel. Do NOT take, impound, disable or otherwise make the aircraft unavailable to the owner (or unsafe to fly) without a written court order, or you may be sued for theft.
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Sue
Hi,
I have made use of the small claims system 18 -25 times (lost count) won every time. It is a great way to bring company's and individuals to take heed of agreements.
Having won your case and if he does not pay ask the court baliff to sezie the aircraft (you get a warm feeling - I promise).
Don't do anything daft like burning up his fuel or preventing it from being moved.
All the best
I have made use of the small claims system 18 -25 times (lost count) won every time. It is a great way to bring company's and individuals to take heed of agreements.
Having won your case and if he does not pay ask the court baliff to sezie the aircraft (you get a warm feeling - I promise).
Don't do anything daft like burning up his fuel or preventing it from being moved.
All the best
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Ferry expenses
Hi Oxeagle,
I don't know what you can do about the case you describe.
However, I would suggest that you learn a lesson from this episode and use your experience to develop standard 'terms and conditions of contract', to which any future customer must sign up before you move a muscle and some kind of 'aircraft condition questionnaire' that the customer must complete, sign and return likewise before you accept the job.
I always thought it was customary for ferry pilots to insist on an 'acceptance flight' before the commitment to perform the ferry flight became binding.
Then, as has already been suggested, insist on all your pre-ferry flight expenses being paid up front before the job starts.
Regards,
Broomstick.
I don't know what you can do about the case you describe.
However, I would suggest that you learn a lesson from this episode and use your experience to develop standard 'terms and conditions of contract', to which any future customer must sign up before you move a muscle and some kind of 'aircraft condition questionnaire' that the customer must complete, sign and return likewise before you accept the job.
I always thought it was customary for ferry pilots to insist on an 'acceptance flight' before the commitment to perform the ferry flight became binding.
Then, as has already been suggested, insist on all your pre-ferry flight expenses being paid up front before the job starts.
Regards,
Broomstick.
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Depends entirely on the contract.
Whose responsibility did you agree it was to ensure that the aircraft was in a fit state to fly?
Whose responsibility did you agree it was to ensure that the aircraft had the necessary paperwork to fly?
Who did you agree should bear the costs if you failed to carry out the contract because of weather, hardly an unlikely outcome that couldn't be predicted?
The customer wanted his aircraft delivered. It didn't happen. He hasn't received his side of the deal. Why should he pay anything at all unless he'd agreed to in advance?
Whose responsibility did you agree it was to ensure that the aircraft was in a fit state to fly?
Whose responsibility did you agree it was to ensure that the aircraft had the necessary paperwork to fly?
Who did you agree should bear the costs if you failed to carry out the contract because of weather, hardly an unlikely outcome that couldn't be predicted?
The customer wanted his aircraft delivered. It didn't happen. He hasn't received his side of the deal. Why should he pay anything at all unless he'd agreed to in advance?
If you have some email supporting your case, you may have something. If not, it's your word against his - and that "ain't gonna fly".
Regardless, given that you want this to remain hypothetical, I would suggest buying a voodoo doll and lots of pins - but nothing else. It's not worth the bad energy...
Safe flights, Sam.
PS be happy that he's going to have to spend a lot more money getting his plane now!
Regardless, given that you want this to remain hypothetical, I would suggest buying a voodoo doll and lots of pins - but nothing else. It's not worth the bad energy...
Safe flights, Sam.
PS be happy that he's going to have to spend a lot more money getting his plane now!
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We still have no answer as to if he is a PPL or a Commercial Pilot. If a PPL then he has no claim back at all. If he is a commercial pilot then I have no sympathy as one of the first thing we learn when becoming a ferry pilot is how to set terms and conditions. I have ferried hundreds of aircraft and have a very clear set of T&C's with specific exclusions around weather conditions. Most ferry pilots also tend to do jobs as fixed cost.
The aircraft going tech is a very common event, especially when picking up aircraft for new owners. It is just a fact of life for the ferry pilot and we learn to live with it and factor time into the equation for snagging.
The perfect scenario is plan for a 5 day trip and find a perfect aircraft and perfect CAVOK and do the whole job in a day. I have yet to have the happen.......
The aircraft going tech is a very common event, especially when picking up aircraft for new owners. It is just a fact of life for the ferry pilot and we learn to live with it and factor time into the equation for snagging.
The perfect scenario is plan for a 5 day trip and find a perfect aircraft and perfect CAVOK and do the whole job in a day. I have yet to have the happen.......
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You folks arguing that it is all down to the contract or small print are all missing the point a little bit.
What you need in a situation like this is leverage. The small claims court gives you precisely that because you do not need a case to set up a summons and your outlay will be very small.
Yes it may be defended.
Yes not all court orders are paid.
Yes it won't work every time.
But it presents the bad payer with an "in-yer-face" problem that is difficult to ignore and often that is all it will take to get your money - whatever the pre-existing agreement may or may not be.
For the record I've used it twice - once it worked, once it didn't.
Outlay = £120 (£60 X2)
Recovery = £971
In neither case was there any sort of contract or agreement, merely a squabble over who owned what to whom.
PS The time I lost was the more satisfying...because it was a big corporation and they turned up at the hearing with four lawyers in tow...what must that have cost them!!
What you need in a situation like this is leverage. The small claims court gives you precisely that because you do not need a case to set up a summons and your outlay will be very small.
Yes it may be defended.
Yes not all court orders are paid.
Yes it won't work every time.
But it presents the bad payer with an "in-yer-face" problem that is difficult to ignore and often that is all it will take to get your money - whatever the pre-existing agreement may or may not be.
For the record I've used it twice - once it worked, once it didn't.
Outlay = £120 (£60 X2)
Recovery = £971
In neither case was there any sort of contract or agreement, merely a squabble over who owned what to whom.
PS The time I lost was the more satisfying...because it was a big corporation and they turned up at the hearing with four lawyers in tow...what must that have cost them!!
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Just reading the first post:
I don't know if I have missed something but if upon arriving to collect the plane, the ferry pilot then discovers the CofA expires in 3 days' time, his immediate action should be to walk away and ask immediately for his expenses to date.
If the money is not forthcoming (say after 30-45 days) then you write a Recorded letter saying court action will be next, and then you wait for 7 days (minimum) and then sue. My office manager, right here where I work, used to do this for a living.
It is obvious the client is a shyster, like so many in aviation, and once a shyster always a shyster. I would not touch him again with a bargepole, not even if handing me all likely expenses up front, in cash.
I mean... just how thick do you have to be to ask for a ferry job for a plane which will be illegal to fly in 3 days' time.
If the ferry pilot decides to hang around and try to salvage the situation despite the punter being such an obvious crook, it seems to be a matter for the interpretation of the ferry pilot's terms and conditions.
If he didn't have any then it could be a tricky court case. The small claims court is great for recovering straightforward debts from people who have big enough balls to behave badly but are too thick to cover their 6 o'clock and are simply relying on people to not have the balls to go after them (true for most dodgy builders/etc, and other semi-professional crooks) but is not good for more complicated stuff.
Worth a try even so, however.
But then again what do I know; I have not ferried hundreds of planes (who has? nobody with the time to post on pprune, that's for sure)
I write as a businessman since 1978.
The ferry pilot should ask for an up front deposit, covering the immediate expenses.
I don't know if I have missed something but if upon arriving to collect the plane, the ferry pilot then discovers the CofA expires in 3 days' time, his immediate action should be to walk away and ask immediately for his expenses to date.
If the money is not forthcoming (say after 30-45 days) then you write a Recorded letter saying court action will be next, and then you wait for 7 days (minimum) and then sue. My office manager, right here where I work, used to do this for a living.
It is obvious the client is a shyster, like so many in aviation, and once a shyster always a shyster. I would not touch him again with a bargepole, not even if handing me all likely expenses up front, in cash.
I mean... just how thick do you have to be to ask for a ferry job for a plane which will be illegal to fly in 3 days' time.
If the ferry pilot decides to hang around and try to salvage the situation despite the punter being such an obvious crook, it seems to be a matter for the interpretation of the ferry pilot's terms and conditions.
If he didn't have any then it could be a tricky court case. The small claims court is great for recovering straightforward debts from people who have big enough balls to behave badly but are too thick to cover their 6 o'clock and are simply relying on people to not have the balls to go after them (true for most dodgy builders/etc, and other semi-professional crooks) but is not good for more complicated stuff.
Worth a try even so, however.
But then again what do I know; I have not ferried hundreds of planes (who has? nobody with the time to post on pprune, that's for sure)
I write as a businessman since 1978.The ferry pilot should ask for an up front deposit, covering the immediate expenses.
Last edited by IO540; 20th Jul 2010 at 14:53.
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But then again what do I know; I have not ferried hundreds of planes (who has? nobody with the time to post on PPRuNe, that's for sure) I write as a businessman since 1978
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I don't know if I have missed something but if upon arriving to collect the plane, the ferry pilot then discovers the CofA expires in 3 days' time, his immediate action should be to walk away and ask immediately for his expenses to date.
Bottom line is that the punter contracted for an aircraft to be moved, and it didn't get moved. If the punter hadn't agreed in advance to carry some of the risk of non-performance then that's that, surely.
Except of course that the punter can then hire someone else to move the aircraft, and sue the original ferry pilot for any higher cost, to put them back in the position they would have been in had the contract been completed as agreed.
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This really is a non event, any ferry pilot worth his salt with make sure they have priced the job correctly and know what to expect.
It usually those who think they are going to get some free flying or hour building that come a cropper as they have no idea what they are getting into.
I am sure Peter who has been a self made businessman since 1978 will come along any second and tell us all about the importance of pricing a job correctly and making sure the T&C's are correct.
It usually those who think they are going to get some free flying or hour building that come a cropper as they have no idea what they are getting into.
I am sure Peter who has been a self made businessman since 1978 will come along any second and tell us all about the importance of pricing a job correctly and making sure the T&C's are correct.
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I'd have thought it was part part of the ferry pilot's job to check that all the paperwork was in place. In good time. After all, the punter is unlikely to know what's required, the ferry pilot should know all the detail.
Bottom line is that the punter contracted for an aircraft to be moved, and it didn't get moved. If the punter hadn't agreed in advance to carry some of the risk of non-performance then that's that, surely.
Except of course that the punter can then hire someone else to move the aircraft, and sue the original ferry pilot for any higher cost, to put them back in the position they would have been in had the contract been completed as agreed.
Except of course that the punter can then hire someone else to move the aircraft, and sue the original ferry pilot for any higher cost, to put them back in the position they would have been in had the contract been completed as agreed.
No doubt a seasoned ferry pilot would have a proforma set of paperwork, developed over years of encounters with assorted "aviation industry customers". Not necessarily one he would want to post publicly, because there are plenty of amateurs who would quite fancy doing ferry jobs. Gosh, even I have a CPL/IR and could legally ferry an N-reg anywhere in the world.
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I know a man who HAS ferried hundreds of aircraft, and have travelled with him.
His meticulous care in going through the aircraft documents before even going near it was impressive. C of A expiring in three days? Instant reason not to fly. I can imagine the joy of sitting at Iqaluit with an expired C of A.
The small claims court / Money Claim Online does indeed work - and the limits these days are quite high. But there would need to be some kind of agreement between the two parties, and common sense would have needed to be applied. I could see a judge saying "C of A expired in three days? Weather is critical? Case upheld."
His meticulous care in going through the aircraft documents before even going near it was impressive. C of A expiring in three days? Instant reason not to fly. I can imagine the joy of sitting at Iqaluit with an expired C of A.
The small claims court / Money Claim Online does indeed work - and the limits these days are quite high. But there would need to be some kind of agreement between the two parties, and common sense would have needed to be applied. I could see a judge saying "C of A expired in three days? Weather is critical? Case upheld."
C of A expiring in three days? Instant reason not to fly.
Not saying that I disagree with any of the [hypothetical] decisions made - and it seems the owner's being a bit of a prick - but there's also a wee bit of useful info missing from the story. Whilst the word 'ferry' has been used there's nothing to say this was a commercial ferry operation by a pilot contracted specifically for the job. It could well have been a case of "hey you've got a license, fancy a bit of a break in xxx and a bimble back in my plane, I'll pay for the fuel..." so possibly more along the lines of a chance meeting in a pub somewhere maybe.
So of the OP's suggested options I'd be inclined to take one or both of the first two with perhaps the outcome of the first option (court) being an agreement on option three (x hours flying in the machine) as a reasonable compromise. Incidentaly I would assume the OP [hypothetically, again] has a receipt for the fuel which, I imagine, could be useful in any court action.
FP.