Northern UK LLC , EGGP/EGCC
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Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Lancashire U K
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Hooligan,
I dont think pilots particularly get their Kecs in a Twist about the 1500' rule in the LLc, but what was never thought of or indeed designed into the thing, was the glidability of Eggbeaters without power! the small heli type's at 1250' have appox 18/21 seconds and appox 550yds before contact with mother earth if all goes quite, if you are over the main part of Warrington you would struggle to Auto into a reasonable LZ, now I sure that one of you chaps will correct me if I am wrong , but I am led to belive that at 1250' in any light A/c you could glide about 1.5 miles? that would put you well outside the danger area of the town centre, so hence my other dislike of the LLC, it is, in my opinion one of the most dangerous areas of sky in the north of England open to PPL's, I have had lengthy conversations with the CAA route designators about this, but as they have agreed it is the best option open to GA at this moment in time, they cannot go nearer to LPL for the reasons covered in other replies to this post, nor can they allow the height to extend up, one thing you can do however is to call up Man App and ask for transit throught at a higher level, I am told that if they are not too busy they will give you that option but then you would be under their total control and squawk conditions, which would be no bad thing for it would be safer than being lower, however I still think that it is not a good place to be in, I am only concerned with the safety of transit, if there were some North/South directional flow rules it would be safer!
I dont think pilots particularly get their Kecs in a Twist about the 1500' rule in the LLc, but what was never thought of or indeed designed into the thing, was the glidability of Eggbeaters without power! the small heli type's at 1250' have appox 18/21 seconds and appox 550yds before contact with mother earth if all goes quite, if you are over the main part of Warrington you would struggle to Auto into a reasonable LZ, now I sure that one of you chaps will correct me if I am wrong , but I am led to belive that at 1250' in any light A/c you could glide about 1.5 miles? that would put you well outside the danger area of the town centre, so hence my other dislike of the LLC, it is, in my opinion one of the most dangerous areas of sky in the north of England open to PPL's, I have had lengthy conversations with the CAA route designators about this, but as they have agreed it is the best option open to GA at this moment in time, they cannot go nearer to LPL for the reasons covered in other replies to this post, nor can they allow the height to extend up, one thing you can do however is to call up Man App and ask for transit throught at a higher level, I am told that if they are not too busy they will give you that option but then you would be under their total control and squawk conditions, which would be no bad thing for it would be safer than being lower, however I still think that it is not a good place to be in, I am only concerned with the safety of transit, if there were some North/South directional flow rules it would be safer!
Join Date: Aug 2000
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Peter B,
The reason I mentioned the 1500ft rule is because I have quite often heard it used as a reason for saying that the LLC is unsafe. As pointed out, the corridor is exempt from this particular part of the Low Flying Rules. However, as you quite rightly say, you are still required to comply with the 'alight clear' aspects of Rule 5. This is always going to be a problem with single engine helis over a built up area, although operators of these contraptions seem to apply their own interpretation of this rule, depending on circumstance that suit themselves. Unfortunately there weren't that many single engine helis and Warrington was not so big when the LLC was introduced.
One option available, especially now that the vertical limit has been raised, is using the airspace to the east of Warrington, North of the Thelwall Viaduct. This is Class G and will allow a transit without the need to overfly large parts of Warrington.
Finally if you think the corridor is dangerous you want to take a look at the North Wales coast on weekends when the weather is fine. There is a procession of west and east bound traffic all normally congregated in the 1500 to 2000 ft band and is far worse than anything that seems to go on in the LLC.
[ 25 September 2001: Message edited by: Hooligan Bill ]
The reason I mentioned the 1500ft rule is because I have quite often heard it used as a reason for saying that the LLC is unsafe. As pointed out, the corridor is exempt from this particular part of the Low Flying Rules. However, as you quite rightly say, you are still required to comply with the 'alight clear' aspects of Rule 5. This is always going to be a problem with single engine helis over a built up area, although operators of these contraptions seem to apply their own interpretation of this rule, depending on circumstance that suit themselves. Unfortunately there weren't that many single engine helis and Warrington was not so big when the LLC was introduced.
One option available, especially now that the vertical limit has been raised, is using the airspace to the east of Warrington, North of the Thelwall Viaduct. This is Class G and will allow a transit without the need to overfly large parts of Warrington.
Finally if you think the corridor is dangerous you want to take a look at the North Wales coast on weekends when the weather is fine. There is a procession of west and east bound traffic all normally congregated in the 1500 to 2000 ft band and is far worse than anything that seems to go on in the LLC.
[ 25 September 2001: Message edited by: Hooligan Bill ]
Join Date: Jan 2001
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PB,
So it's the glide range of eggbeaters that causes the anxiety? You are right; that bit gives me some anxiety in f/w. If you feel that there aren't enough green bits to follow around Warrington, I have found that Liverpool App. are always amenable to a request for a VFR transit along the lines of Kirby - LPL - WHI, not above 1500'. "The Greener but Wetter Route"
So it's the glide range of eggbeaters that causes the anxiety? You are right; that bit gives me some anxiety in f/w. If you feel that there aren't enough green bits to follow around Warrington, I have found that Liverpool App. are always amenable to a request for a VFR transit along the lines of Kirby - LPL - WHI, not above 1500'. "The Greener but Wetter Route"
