Ground radio Instructions ??
Senis Semper Fidelis
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Ground radio Instructions ??
Hello Ppruners,
I had a small altercation with a Non Atc operative at a certain (international Airpark) near to Birmingham on Thursday of this week, whilst being given such messages as " Land at Your Discretion you are number two" then adding after I had come into the hover "land at such a place" then asking me where I was, when I was right in front of the tower building, and then trying to give me a hard time for ignoring his instructions( which were not heard by any of four people in the Heli), I have lent my Radio books to another budding Pilot, so can anyone help me out with this, Am I mistaken? can a Air ground set up, give any fixed and firm instructions, or was I in the right to land at the most logical and safest place in my, and my fellow passengers opinions!
It isnt an issue but I would like to be certain of my understanding of the rule.
I had a small altercation with a Non Atc operative at a certain (international Airpark) near to Birmingham on Thursday of this week, whilst being given such messages as " Land at Your Discretion you are number two" then adding after I had come into the hover "land at such a place" then asking me where I was, when I was right in front of the tower building, and then trying to give me a hard time for ignoring his instructions( which were not heard by any of four people in the Heli), I have lent my Radio books to another budding Pilot, so can anyone help me out with this, Am I mistaken? can a Air ground set up, give any fixed and firm instructions, or was I in the right to land at the most logical and safest place in my, and my fellow passengers opinions!
It isnt an issue but I would like to be certain of my understanding of the rule.
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VFRPILOTPB -
I have just picked up my well-thumbed copy of CAP413 (CAA r/t manual). I refer you to p58, "Examples of Air-Ground operators phraseology" This clearly states, and I quote
"A/G operators should not use the expression "at your discretion" as this is associated with the service provided by FISOs".
Even then, a FISO even, is not able to issue instructions or advice of his own volition. They are permitted to pass instructions to vehicles, personnel, aircraft etc on the manoeuvring area. At all times in the air communications with pilots will only be the passing of information. CAP413 p36....
Remember, the operators of an A/G facility need to have NO FORMAL ATC QUALIFICATIONS - or even flying qualifications. You could be talking to the Tea Boy, or the office clerk.
To summarise,
A/G - (Callsign XXX Radio)CAN ONLY give information
FIS - (callsign XXX Information) Operator is a CAA approved Flight Information Service Officer. It is NOT a control service, but an information service. Info will be relevant to safe and efficient conduct of flight
ATC - (Ie., Radar, Approach etc) Fully qualified ATCOs and they do issue instructions.
Hope that helps. I suggest that you carry on with what you are doing, and if it happens again, a quiet word in the airfield management's ear, and if that doesnt work, there is always the chaps at CAA SRG in Gatwick!
Tailwinds
I have just picked up my well-thumbed copy of CAP413 (CAA r/t manual). I refer you to p58, "Examples of Air-Ground operators phraseology" This clearly states, and I quote
"A/G operators should not use the expression "at your discretion" as this is associated with the service provided by FISOs".
Even then, a FISO even, is not able to issue instructions or advice of his own volition. They are permitted to pass instructions to vehicles, personnel, aircraft etc on the manoeuvring area. At all times in the air communications with pilots will only be the passing of information. CAP413 p36....
Remember, the operators of an A/G facility need to have NO FORMAL ATC QUALIFICATIONS - or even flying qualifications. You could be talking to the Tea Boy, or the office clerk.
To summarise,
A/G - (Callsign XXX Radio)CAN ONLY give information
FIS - (callsign XXX Information) Operator is a CAA approved Flight Information Service Officer. It is NOT a control service, but an information service. Info will be relevant to safe and efficient conduct of flight
ATC - (Ie., Radar, Approach etc) Fully qualified ATCOs and they do issue instructions.
Hope that helps. I suggest that you carry on with what you are doing, and if it happens again, a quiet word in the airfield management's ear, and if that doesnt work, there is always the chaps at CAA SRG in Gatwick!
Tailwinds
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If he was an AFISO, he can give you taxi instructions and advise you to do things at "your discretion." So "landing" the helicopter would be an interesting one, as it may be that you were hover "taxying", so maybe within his rights???? (don't know the position to be honest)
If he was an A/G operator, he needs educating, as gently as you think fit!
Cheers
If he was an A/G operator, he needs educating, as gently as you think fit!
Cheers
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Had two lovely examples of A/G radio (one good, one not so) on the same day recently.
The first was cheerfully "clearing" takeoffs and landings, including ours - a shame about the aircraft stopped mid-runway in front of us at the time.
At our next destination, we did a longish final and called our position at 5m, 2m and 1m. Just before we reached 1m, another aircraft entered the runway and backtracked towards us. The A/G operator showed supreme restraint, only saying to the other aircraft "I have advised you of the landing traffic"
We were amused by the two very different radio styles.
Fortunately, we persuaded the (non-pilot) passenger that he was extremely lucky to have experience two go-arounds on the same day.
The first was cheerfully "clearing" takeoffs and landings, including ours - a shame about the aircraft stopped mid-runway in front of us at the time.
At our next destination, we did a longish final and called our position at 5m, 2m and 1m. Just before we reached 1m, another aircraft entered the runway and backtracked towards us. The A/G operator showed supreme restraint, only saying to the other aircraft "I have advised you of the landing traffic"
We were amused by the two very different radio styles.
Fortunately, we persuaded the (non-pilot) passenger that he was extremely lucky to have experience two go-arounds on the same day.
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Hmmmm, I had an altercation at a place that became an International Airpark - when it used to be just a colour that wasn't worth a full penny.
Was a long time ago - but "controller" who was operating the air/ground service said he had the authority to instruct me to do an overhead join...when my inbound track just happened to put me on a twenty mile (long) final.
Was a long time ago - but "controller" who was operating the air/ground service said he had the authority to instruct me to do an overhead join...when my inbound track just happened to put me on a twenty mile (long) final.
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Just to clarify, FISOs can issue instructions to aircraft, vehicles and personnel on the manoeuvring area (up to the runway holds). In the case of helicopters, once they are in the hover and 'hover taxiing', they can be considered to taxiing like fixed-wing and instructions can be issued.
A/G - clearly not.
If you come across repeated abuse of the rules then COMPLAIN. Not on the freq but in person/by phone. If you don't get anywhere then there is always ATS Standards at Gatwick.
A/G - clearly not.
If you come across repeated abuse of the rules then COMPLAIN. Not on the freq but in person/by phone. If you don't get anywhere then there is always ATS Standards at Gatwick.
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brisl
If you were being cleared at an A/G unit you cannot sit by and let it happen - you must report this sort of thing to ATSSD. The guy is issuing illegal instructions and needs to be dealt with, before he causes an incident. I for one would be very interested as to where this took place - let me know direct if you wish.
CM
If you were being cleared at an A/G unit you cannot sit by and let it happen - you must report this sort of thing to ATSSD. The guy is issuing illegal instructions and needs to be dealt with, before he causes an incident. I for one would be very interested as to where this took place - let me know direct if you wish.
CM
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It would appear you ground operator may not have been using the correct callsign, or you would know his exact status. Offence under Art 91.
A/G operate in accordance with CAP 452 not CAP 413. AFIS operate in accordance with CAP 410.
Many A/G operators do not have the CA1308 signed by the radio station licensee who is responsible for ensuring they operate the station in accordance with CAP452.
A/G operate in accordance with CAP 452 not CAP 413. AFIS operate in accordance with CAP 410.
Many A/G operators do not have the CA1308 signed by the radio station licensee who is responsible for ensuring they operate the station in accordance with CAP452.
Senis Semper Fidelis
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Thank you for all your answers, what can I say but " Wheels now in motion" I will let you know of the outcome, some one has to do something so it might as well be me!
My Regards
Monday the 10th:
Have now spoken to the Airside Manager, a very nice man, who fully understood what I said, he explained that the Twr man on the day was young man who is a FISO under training, and after talking to me at length he promised to do something about the way Pilots are spoken to by the Twr. Wolverhampton are looking for full ATC cover in the future!
[ 10 September 2001: Message edited by: Vfrpilotpb ]
My Regards
Monday the 10th:
Have now spoken to the Airside Manager, a very nice man, who fully understood what I said, he explained that the Twr man on the day was young man who is a FISO under training, and after talking to me at length he promised to do something about the way Pilots are spoken to by the Twr. Wolverhampton are looking for full ATC cover in the future!
[ 10 September 2001: Message edited by: Vfrpilotpb ]
