Gliders and near misses.
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OK, Snap. Go gliding sometime.
I have my feet in three camps. Gliding, powered flying and airline flying.
Alot of PPL's spend alot of time moaning about the legislation involved in their flying.
Gliding is, to me, the purest form of flying.
There are some gliders with quite sophisticated tracking systems but in the end the cost and practicality of a transponder will always prevent them from being installed.
I'd like to know more about the radar patch Genghis mentioned though I have the reservation that it requires a pilot to be receiving a radar service to derive any benefit. Receiving radar service = talking on the radio = fiddling with frequencies = stress = not looking out of the window.
This was demonstrated by my father to a fairly new PPL a couple of weekends ago on the way to Le Touq when London information were so busy they were closed and they were passes off to Lydd who only said hello and good-bye. They just sat in peace and enjoyed the ride.
What's the addiction to the radio?
I have my feet in three camps. Gliding, powered flying and airline flying.
Alot of PPL's spend alot of time moaning about the legislation involved in their flying.
Gliding is, to me, the purest form of flying.
There are some gliders with quite sophisticated tracking systems but in the end the cost and practicality of a transponder will always prevent them from being installed.
I'd like to know more about the radar patch Genghis mentioned though I have the reservation that it requires a pilot to be receiving a radar service to derive any benefit. Receiving radar service = talking on the radio = fiddling with frequencies = stress = not looking out of the window.
This was demonstrated by my father to a fairly new PPL a couple of weekends ago on the way to Le Touq when London information were so busy they were closed and they were passes off to Lydd who only said hello and good-bye. They just sat in peace and enjoyed the ride.
What's the addiction to the radio?
Finals3 - not always! Use the radio only when you need it, don't expect a RIS on a day like today, use London FIS for information if you need it; as I'm sure most people know, London FIS cannot provide any ATC service.
Many a navex I've examined has highlighted very poor use of R/T - over concentration on 'LARS' on 8/8 blue days and insufficient attention paid to aerodromes encountered en-route.
There is an increasing tendency to hear "ERRR - Somewhere Radar, this is errr Golf Alfa Hello Good Morning, we are a errr Spamcan 145Romeo mark 2, on a navigation exercise from err Boontown to Elsewhere routing via the ABC to the DEF to the GHI to the JKL at 2500 feet on the err Wherever QNH of err 1008. Requesting Radar Advisory Service, over" To which ATC respond:"Golf Golf Mike - you are outside my radar cover, suggest you call Mendip Radar on 123.55. G'day"
Please - only use R/T if you need to and not just because it's there. When you do - don't witter on and on. Who you are, where you are and what you want to happen - they want anything else, they ask for it!
Many a navex I've examined has highlighted very poor use of R/T - over concentration on 'LARS' on 8/8 blue days and insufficient attention paid to aerodromes encountered en-route.
There is an increasing tendency to hear "ERRR - Somewhere Radar, this is errr Golf Alfa Hello Good Morning, we are a errr Spamcan 145Romeo mark 2, on a navigation exercise from err Boontown to Elsewhere routing via the ABC to the DEF to the GHI to the JKL at 2500 feet on the err Wherever QNH of err 1008. Requesting Radar Advisory Service, over" To which ATC respond:"Golf Golf Mike - you are outside my radar cover, suggest you call Mendip Radar on 123.55. G'day"
Please - only use R/T if you need to and not just because it's there. When you do - don't witter on and on. Who you are, where you are and what you want to happen - they want anything else, they ask for it!
Sorry mate - it's these silly new icons! I've stopped using them and have to rely on prose instead!
"Squawking 7000, to en-route, g'day!"
"Squawking 7000, to en-route, g'day!"
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So, without actually going gliding (only just go the hang of this powered stuff), how can I learn the characteristics of gliding that could help in me in avoiding them - already learnt something today (avoid ridges).
To make an analogy, I read a book a while back about a long distance lorry driver and learnt enough to appreciate the problems they have (i.e., sharp bends require more room so don't be a tw*t and cut them up just 'cos you in a GTI)
At the moment, I check if gliding is active in our local site and give it a wide bearth - not always ideal.
To make an analogy, I read a book a while back about a long distance lorry driver and learnt enough to appreciate the problems they have (i.e., sharp bends require more room so don't be a tw*t and cut them up just 'cos you in a GTI)
At the moment, I check if gliding is active in our local site and give it a wide bearth - not always ideal.
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Bcfc.
Er, good point! Its quite hard to find what you describe as gliding is a very practical sport. Also depends on what the glider pilot is up to; maybe be there's a competition with a 300km triangle or a 100km out and back, Maybe a 1000m height gain or a 5 hr endurance. Also depends upon the airspace and thermic conditions but typically from ground to cloud base will be divided into three layers where in the lower third you'll take any lift going or be looking for a good field. In the middle third you'll only stop for a certain amount of lift otherwise you're en route. In the top third you're going places. Cloud streets (a line of Cu's) are good business for glider pilots.
Throw in a couple or twelve other gliders on the same course and you've got a bit to think about.
Doesn't help much if you don't know what their goal is but I hope you can understand a little of the nature of the sport.
You could approach the gliding club and ask them to notify your airfield if they have any events planned.
Incidentally, I once knocked 7 minutes off a paradrop flight by thermalling. The VSI was off the scale!
Er, good point! Its quite hard to find what you describe as gliding is a very practical sport. Also depends on what the glider pilot is up to; maybe be there's a competition with a 300km triangle or a 100km out and back, Maybe a 1000m height gain or a 5 hr endurance. Also depends upon the airspace and thermic conditions but typically from ground to cloud base will be divided into three layers where in the lower third you'll take any lift going or be looking for a good field. In the middle third you'll only stop for a certain amount of lift otherwise you're en route. In the top third you're going places. Cloud streets (a line of Cu's) are good business for glider pilots.
Throw in a couple or twelve other gliders on the same course and you've got a bit to think about.
Doesn't help much if you don't know what their goal is but I hope you can understand a little of the nature of the sport.
You could approach the gliding club and ask them to notify your airfield if they have any events planned.
Incidentally, I once knocked 7 minutes off a paradrop flight by thermalling. The VSI was off the scale!
Senis Semper Fidelis
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Good morning ppruners,
In the area local to me we have a few glider sites they always seem to stick to that area for it is in the terms of those chap good glidding country, they always show up for they are always circling, obviously to pick up their free lift, as yet I have only in three years of Heli flying come across two cross country gliders and they did show up reasonably well, other posters on this thread have made comments about hang gliders always seem to carry radios, well its the hangliders who I am very wary of, On at least four occassions I have come across these chaps by absolute surprise, with the local ATC not being aware of them or even able to pick them up on the Radar on two of these occassions at heights above 3000ft, all they do is give me a good wave(or it could be two fingers who knows) but they never seem to be on local radio watch which I feel would be to their advantage more than others, however we are all entitled to be in the air, we are all equals when in the air, so why dont these people, Gliders and Hang gliders make their hobby a little more secure by haveing a radio of sorts, they dont need to talk to anybody but they would be more aware of heavy metal comming towards them, would they not!!
In the area local to me we have a few glider sites they always seem to stick to that area for it is in the terms of those chap good glidding country, they always show up for they are always circling, obviously to pick up their free lift, as yet I have only in three years of Heli flying come across two cross country gliders and they did show up reasonably well, other posters on this thread have made comments about hang gliders always seem to carry radios, well its the hangliders who I am very wary of, On at least four occassions I have come across these chaps by absolute surprise, with the local ATC not being aware of them or even able to pick them up on the Radar on two of these occassions at heights above 3000ft, all they do is give me a good wave(or it could be two fingers who knows) but they never seem to be on local radio watch which I feel would be to their advantage more than others, however we are all entitled to be in the air, we are all equals when in the air, so why dont these people, Gliders and Hang gliders make their hobby a little more secure by haveing a radio of sorts, they dont need to talk to anybody but they would be more aware of heavy metal comming towards them, would they not!!
Safety First!
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Lots of debate here over strobes and high vis markings. Ive flown gliders as well as aeroplanes and can only say that there is no substitute for a damn good look out at all times.
Incidentally, strobes during daylight, in my opinion, aren't nearly as effective as they're made out to be. I have had more near misses with other aeroplanes when flying a Diamond Katana (very thin aeroplane with glider heritage) than i ever did flying gliders. Its interesting to note that at the time of each of these near misses I had every light I could possible have, on.
Keep safe, keep your eyes and ears open.
Kermie
Incidentally, strobes during daylight, in my opinion, aren't nearly as effective as they're made out to be. I have had more near misses with other aeroplanes when flying a Diamond Katana (very thin aeroplane with glider heritage) than i ever did flying gliders. Its interesting to note that at the time of each of these near misses I had every light I could possible have, on.
Keep safe, keep your eyes and ears open.
Kermie
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It's a real shame that there is so much misunderstanding about other forms of aviation to the one that you're involved in. As an all-round aviator, military, GA and gliding, with over 1000hrs in each, I'm lucky enough to see 'the other-side's story'.
To answer a couple of points about transponders and radios. The problem with fitting a transponder to a glider is space (and yes, I know that there are some very small ones on the market). Most glider instrument panels are very small because of the need to have everything as compact as possible, and it would be very difficult to actually fit one in amongst the other instruments we have (if you don't believe me, ask to look behind a high performance sailplane's instrument panel sometime). On the subject of radios, I bet that you would find very few gliders without them these days.
The original thread, though, was about glider conspicuity. The colour of composite gliders being sited as the prime problem. Well, I'm sorry to say but the problem lies mostly in the lack of relative motion and size of the aircraft. I'll bet no-one has a problem seeing a nice white airliner flying along at 200 knots plus. There is no substitute for maintaining a good lookout at all times and not getting your head buried in the cockpit staring at maps and electronic gizzmos. During a gliding comp I was flying in last summer, whilst folowing a line of energy (that's the nice line of cumulus for the uninitiated) did I watch 2 light aircraft, a Cherokee and an Aztec, converge on me from my 2 o'clock and pass within a few hundred feet in front of me within 5 minutes of each other. Neither showed any indication that they had seen me whereas I had watched both for more than a minute before they passed me. I can assure you that I was not flying straight and level as I was constantly changing height when I flew in and out of lift, and I was also gently weaving to either side of track to follow the best lift. Thus, I was providing them with a moving manoeuvring airframe at all times.
So come on Guys and Gals, stop blaming the problems on a lack of transponders, radios and lights - get your eyes OUT of the cockpit when flying VFR, whatever you fly.
To answer a couple of points about transponders and radios. The problem with fitting a transponder to a glider is space (and yes, I know that there are some very small ones on the market). Most glider instrument panels are very small because of the need to have everything as compact as possible, and it would be very difficult to actually fit one in amongst the other instruments we have (if you don't believe me, ask to look behind a high performance sailplane's instrument panel sometime). On the subject of radios, I bet that you would find very few gliders without them these days.
The original thread, though, was about glider conspicuity. The colour of composite gliders being sited as the prime problem. Well, I'm sorry to say but the problem lies mostly in the lack of relative motion and size of the aircraft. I'll bet no-one has a problem seeing a nice white airliner flying along at 200 knots plus. There is no substitute for maintaining a good lookout at all times and not getting your head buried in the cockpit staring at maps and electronic gizzmos. During a gliding comp I was flying in last summer, whilst folowing a line of energy (that's the nice line of cumulus for the uninitiated) did I watch 2 light aircraft, a Cherokee and an Aztec, converge on me from my 2 o'clock and pass within a few hundred feet in front of me within 5 minutes of each other. Neither showed any indication that they had seen me whereas I had watched both for more than a minute before they passed me. I can assure you that I was not flying straight and level as I was constantly changing height when I flew in and out of lift, and I was also gently weaving to either side of track to follow the best lift. Thus, I was providing them with a moving manoeuvring airframe at all times.
So come on Guys and Gals, stop blaming the problems on a lack of transponders, radios and lights - get your eyes OUT of the cockpit when flying VFR, whatever you fly.
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just my humble thoughts on the matter.!!!!
I agree that it should be compulsory for all air traffic to have a working transciever ( excuse spelling), and where possible the gliding world should look at making gliders more visible...
but, i dont think transponders would work , think of the numbers of gliders that you get in very close proximity to each other, both in the circuit and in thermals, surely the pure number of transponder blips on a controllers screen would be unworkable and cause more hassle than it's worth.
no pilot is absolved from good airmanship, and in defence of us glider people, due to the increased need when gliding to keep head up to continually monitor attitude the glider pilot ( IMHO ) prob performs a better look out, the lookout is something that should be reinforced more strongly in every pilot of all aircraft types... the increasingly common use of GPS has resulted in a " heads down " breed of pilot, and they should revert back to an aviation chart ( which marks on it all gliding sites) and more traditional nav methods, as I think that these methods make for a better pilot.
anyway.... speech over...!!!!
I agree that it should be compulsory for all air traffic to have a working transciever ( excuse spelling), and where possible the gliding world should look at making gliders more visible...
but, i dont think transponders would work , think of the numbers of gliders that you get in very close proximity to each other, both in the circuit and in thermals, surely the pure number of transponder blips on a controllers screen would be unworkable and cause more hassle than it's worth.
no pilot is absolved from good airmanship, and in defence of us glider people, due to the increased need when gliding to keep head up to continually monitor attitude the glider pilot ( IMHO ) prob performs a better look out, the lookout is something that should be reinforced more strongly in every pilot of all aircraft types... the increasingly common use of GPS has resulted in a " heads down " breed of pilot, and they should revert back to an aviation chart ( which marks on it all gliding sites) and more traditional nav methods, as I think that these methods make for a better pilot.
anyway.... speech over...!!!!
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Glider Insider/Chilled Out Chap
Good lookout is essential, but you both seem to be in denial of the fact that you guys are HARD to see in typical VMC conditions.
Large airliners doing 200kts do get attention it is true, but having shared airspace with this type of traffic in the US, they are hard to see head on at 5NM and at a closing speed of 5NM/minute they can also pop out of nowhere; however at any decent angle their mass will tend to show against the sky, assuming that they are above your level. Not always as easy to see in the climb out of suburban clutter as you might imagine.
Please see my earlier postings, I used to fly gliders and now fly powered and am supportive of gliding.
But white coloured composite gliders are difficult to see against a cloudy or hazy skyscape, period. Also see the earlier posting about the Katana, with which I agree.
We should always give way to you (from the law and airmanship perspectives), but you also have a moral responsibility to help us to see you from a point of good airmanship and mutually safe skies.
Genghis has already stated his tactic in a micro light and it would help if glider pilots would be a little more proactive in waggling wings etc to cause the flash of refected light that gets our attention. I note your comments chilled out chap and point out that I am commenting generally and acknowledging your particular actions.
As a final point, ask yourself why the RAF paints its training a/c BLACK. I realise that composite airframes do not appreciate this treatment , but its your choice to fly them and we all need to pull together in the interests of safety - I keep a really good lookout and it is scary how often a white glider pops out of a white sky much closer than I would prefer.
I also don't understand this vendetta against GPS - if used properly it will reduce the "heads in" time and one should not wait until airborne to be cognisant with glider sites wiht 5NM of planned track - in other words I think that this argument is a red herring.
To apply your argument to all traffic is also naive, as you might well be mixing it with IFR traffic flying in VMC, whose primary reference point is the panel, so you really ought to consider single crew IFR and the consequences - they also have a right to be up there.
If a powered pilot flying visually is so "heads in", what happens to the a.c attitude?? Unusual attitude pretty quickly if the wing levelller is off.
[ 08 August 2001: Message edited by: Final 3 Greens ]
Good lookout is essential, but you both seem to be in denial of the fact that you guys are HARD to see in typical VMC conditions.
Large airliners doing 200kts do get attention it is true, but having shared airspace with this type of traffic in the US, they are hard to see head on at 5NM and at a closing speed of 5NM/minute they can also pop out of nowhere; however at any decent angle their mass will tend to show against the sky, assuming that they are above your level. Not always as easy to see in the climb out of suburban clutter as you might imagine.
Please see my earlier postings, I used to fly gliders and now fly powered and am supportive of gliding.
But white coloured composite gliders are difficult to see against a cloudy or hazy skyscape, period. Also see the earlier posting about the Katana, with which I agree.
We should always give way to you (from the law and airmanship perspectives), but you also have a moral responsibility to help us to see you from a point of good airmanship and mutually safe skies.
Genghis has already stated his tactic in a micro light and it would help if glider pilots would be a little more proactive in waggling wings etc to cause the flash of refected light that gets our attention. I note your comments chilled out chap and point out that I am commenting generally and acknowledging your particular actions.
As a final point, ask yourself why the RAF paints its training a/c BLACK. I realise that composite airframes do not appreciate this treatment , but its your choice to fly them and we all need to pull together in the interests of safety - I keep a really good lookout and it is scary how often a white glider pops out of a white sky much closer than I would prefer.
I also don't understand this vendetta against GPS - if used properly it will reduce the "heads in" time and one should not wait until airborne to be cognisant with glider sites wiht 5NM of planned track - in other words I think that this argument is a red herring.
To apply your argument to all traffic is also naive, as you might well be mixing it with IFR traffic flying in VMC, whose primary reference point is the panel, so you really ought to consider single crew IFR and the consequences - they also have a right to be up there.
If a powered pilot flying visually is so "heads in", what happens to the a.c attitude?? Unusual attitude pretty quickly if the wing levelller is off.
[ 08 August 2001: Message edited by: Final 3 Greens ]
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Final 3 Greens
Certainly not in denial that we glider chaps in composite sailplanes are difficult to see. I'm just a great advocate for improving the lookout of the average chap in the skies. Have lost several very good friends over the years in mid-airs so am well aware of the problems of a lack of lookout. And yes, GPS should help to keep eyes out of the cockpit but I'm afraid a lack of familiarity with it's operation (along with other electronic gizzmos on the panel) leads to an over-attraction to the compulsive displays. It's amazing how a little confusion with what's being displayed can sap such a huge amount of brain capacity. I'm afraid this is fact no matter who you are and what experience you have. Even with all the practice I've had driving the Queen's finest 'toys' around the skies over the years I know my lookout could be improved - so I'm sure everyone elses could be as well.
Certainly not in denial that we glider chaps in composite sailplanes are difficult to see. I'm just a great advocate for improving the lookout of the average chap in the skies. Have lost several very good friends over the years in mid-airs so am well aware of the problems of a lack of lookout. And yes, GPS should help to keep eyes out of the cockpit but I'm afraid a lack of familiarity with it's operation (along with other electronic gizzmos on the panel) leads to an over-attraction to the compulsive displays. It's amazing how a little confusion with what's being displayed can sap such a huge amount of brain capacity. I'm afraid this is fact no matter who you are and what experience you have. Even with all the practice I've had driving the Queen's finest 'toys' around the skies over the years I know my lookout could be improved - so I'm sure everyone elses could be as well.
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Chilled Out Chap
I agree with the points that you make and am sorry to hear that you have lost friends in mid airs - we had a nasty one at North Weald ood as the in the recent past and it made us all consider our airmanship and lookout.
Yes, lookout can never be too good and I can't help but feel that one of the main challenges for PPLs is achieving the unconscious competence to fly accurately with little attention, freeing up more time to look out of the cabin (which is often far from perfect - e.g. if all SEP offered visibility like the Bulldog, it would be a better world.)
I agree with the points that you make and am sorry to hear that you have lost friends in mid airs - we had a nasty one at North Weald ood as the in the recent past and it made us all consider our airmanship and lookout.
Yes, lookout can never be too good and I can't help but feel that one of the main challenges for PPLs is achieving the unconscious competence to fly accurately with little attention, freeing up more time to look out of the cabin (which is often far from perfect - e.g. if all SEP offered visibility like the Bulldog, it would be a better world.)
