The 100 hour glass ceiling
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The 100 hour glass ceiling
I've seen a number of different places where there is a 100 hour minimum:
1) Some private grass airstrips won't accept pilots with <100 hours
2) Some aircraft are not available for hire to pilots with < 100 hours
3) Some shared ownership groups won't sell their shares to anyone with < 100 hours
With PPL taking perhaps somewhere between 50 and 80 hours, there's clearly a stage in between.
Two questions about this:
a) Do insurance policies for standard touring aircraft impose significant extra costs for less experienced pilots?
b) Are there any simple ways around these restrictions (other than hour building)?
I'm thinking that for (1) you could land at airstrips by hiring an instructor for the first visit and sweet talking the owner into letting you return on your own; for (3) joining a group on the basis that you are always accompanied by another group member until you reach 100 hours.
It seems to me that once you've passed the test, you are either still somewhat tied to your flight training club or need to go do some hour building where/when the weather is nice in order to get up to the next level. Continuing to be under the wing (pun intended
) of a flying club may be no bad thing - being able to continue to ask dumb questions as you gain experience will help further raise standards.
What did others do when they passed their test and did they find there to be an artificial glass ceiling until they gained more hours?
1) Some private grass airstrips won't accept pilots with <100 hours
2) Some aircraft are not available for hire to pilots with < 100 hours
3) Some shared ownership groups won't sell their shares to anyone with < 100 hours
With PPL taking perhaps somewhere between 50 and 80 hours, there's clearly a stage in between.
Two questions about this:
a) Do insurance policies for standard touring aircraft impose significant extra costs for less experienced pilots?
b) Are there any simple ways around these restrictions (other than hour building)?
I'm thinking that for (1) you could land at airstrips by hiring an instructor for the first visit and sweet talking the owner into letting you return on your own; for (3) joining a group on the basis that you are always accompanied by another group member until you reach 100 hours.
It seems to me that once you've passed the test, you are either still somewhat tied to your flight training club or need to go do some hour building where/when the weather is nice in order to get up to the next level. Continuing to be under the wing (pun intended
) of a flying club may be no bad thing - being able to continue to ask dumb questions as you gain experience will help further raise standards.What did others do when they passed their test and did they find there to be an artificial glass ceiling until they gained more hours?
You have a lot more confidence than I have ever had if you'd be happy,as a newly qualified PPL, flying any SEP into any strip.
I took quite some hours after my PPL to feel confident about landing on my then local airfield. Then moved to more tricky strips. I had about 200 hours total when I joined a Jodel group.
I took quite some hours after my PPL to feel confident about landing on my then local airfield. Then moved to more tricky strips. I had about 200 hours total when I joined a Jodel group.
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Well.... Let my try to be helpful, while carefully trying to not seem condescending (which I certainly do not intend).
There's a saying that you can have a thousand hours, or an hour a thousand times. You'll quickly figure out how that applies to a hundred hours or less too.
After 34 years, and many thousands of hours of flying, I took a PPL ground school again this past spring. I was stunned to be reminded how much is not taught in ground school, and by extension, in most flight training. It's just not on the required curriculum, and students are probably already grimmacing about the amount of flying to qualify for an examination as it is - they hardly want more! That does not mean it would not be very valuable. It just will not fit into the first 100 hours, no matter how you push on it!
Those more experienced pilots (who operate grass strips, rent out aircraft, and choose who can be eligible for shares) generally know this. They are looking back on their experience, and figuring out where their comfort level starts and stops for less experienced pilots. 100 hours is really on the low side.
When I had 1000 hours, I though I knew it all, and was probably quite dangerous. Many thousands of hours later, I think I will one day be a good pilot, if I stick with it, and apply myself. In the mean time, I keep my mind open for more experience. All fixed wing insurance companies regard me as insurable (in my realm), and many people seek me out for checkouts, and other flying. I still have lots to learn...
So where's the advice, which might help you? The collective experience of the instructors you fly with has it's own "glass ceiling" which will be very difficult for you to determine. I'm not saying it's low, but it could be, and you cannot tell. If one of them has grey hair, you've got a better chance. There will come a point where continuing to fly with them, at best gives you more total flying time, during which, hopefully, you will statisically have more experiences. I know how you feel more than you think. After earning my helicopter license two and a half years ago (which involved lots of solo flying as a student) I have not flown any of my subsequest 60 hours as a PPLH solo. Everone likes my flying, but no one's insurance will cover me! So I fly with other pilots, and continue to learn immense amounts.
You are better to relax, lean back, and submit to the experience (as opposed to total flying time) expectations of those who control the use of aircraft and facilities. Align youself as best you can with these people, and make it very clear that you know that with a PPL, you are at the very beginning of your flying education. As you "hang around", and do some flying within their "view", they may come to relax a little. If you're sharp, pick up lots, and if they can see this, the time requirements may fade, in favour of your obvious broad experience. In reality, by the time you reach the point of demonstrating this level of skill, you probably will have passed 100 hours!
Trust me, years form now, when you have thousands of hours, you'll look back, and think, yeah, now I understand....
Unlikely I would let a 100 pilot fly my C 150 out of my grass strip, unless that pilot had demonstrated super skills to me over a number of hours of flying together. But that's just me... Think of it from the point of view of the aircraft or airstrip provider, any minor ding is going to cost them money, and loss of use of the aircraft. Was the 10% profit on those couple of hours of rental to you worth that cost? Probably not. The risk mitigation says just don't put the aircraft in that risk. It's just really difficult to quantify the point where the risk drops to being reasonable. An hour a hundred times is a worry. A hundred different hours is a very good start. Show 'em what you've got!
Sorry to not sound more positive. If you owned the aircraft or runway, you would probably not be offering it to inexperienced pilots for all the same reasons. Bear with us, and be patient, you'll get there...
There's a saying that you can have a thousand hours, or an hour a thousand times. You'll quickly figure out how that applies to a hundred hours or less too.
After 34 years, and many thousands of hours of flying, I took a PPL ground school again this past spring. I was stunned to be reminded how much is not taught in ground school, and by extension, in most flight training. It's just not on the required curriculum, and students are probably already grimmacing about the amount of flying to qualify for an examination as it is - they hardly want more! That does not mean it would not be very valuable. It just will not fit into the first 100 hours, no matter how you push on it!
Those more experienced pilots (who operate grass strips, rent out aircraft, and choose who can be eligible for shares) generally know this. They are looking back on their experience, and figuring out where their comfort level starts and stops for less experienced pilots. 100 hours is really on the low side.
When I had 1000 hours, I though I knew it all, and was probably quite dangerous. Many thousands of hours later, I think I will one day be a good pilot, if I stick with it, and apply myself. In the mean time, I keep my mind open for more experience. All fixed wing insurance companies regard me as insurable (in my realm), and many people seek me out for checkouts, and other flying. I still have lots to learn...
So where's the advice, which might help you? The collective experience of the instructors you fly with has it's own "glass ceiling" which will be very difficult for you to determine. I'm not saying it's low, but it could be, and you cannot tell. If one of them has grey hair, you've got a better chance. There will come a point where continuing to fly with them, at best gives you more total flying time, during which, hopefully, you will statisically have more experiences. I know how you feel more than you think. After earning my helicopter license two and a half years ago (which involved lots of solo flying as a student) I have not flown any of my subsequest 60 hours as a PPLH solo. Everone likes my flying, but no one's insurance will cover me! So I fly with other pilots, and continue to learn immense amounts.
You are better to relax, lean back, and submit to the experience (as opposed to total flying time) expectations of those who control the use of aircraft and facilities. Align youself as best you can with these people, and make it very clear that you know that with a PPL, you are at the very beginning of your flying education. As you "hang around", and do some flying within their "view", they may come to relax a little. If you're sharp, pick up lots, and if they can see this, the time requirements may fade, in favour of your obvious broad experience. In reality, by the time you reach the point of demonstrating this level of skill, you probably will have passed 100 hours!
Trust me, years form now, when you have thousands of hours, you'll look back, and think, yeah, now I understand....
Unlikely I would let a 100 pilot fly my C 150 out of my grass strip, unless that pilot had demonstrated super skills to me over a number of hours of flying together. But that's just me... Think of it from the point of view of the aircraft or airstrip provider, any minor ding is going to cost them money, and loss of use of the aircraft. Was the 10% profit on those couple of hours of rental to you worth that cost? Probably not. The risk mitigation says just don't put the aircraft in that risk. It's just really difficult to quantify the point where the risk drops to being reasonable. An hour a hundred times is a worry. A hundred different hours is a very good start. Show 'em what you've got!
Sorry to not sound more positive. If you owned the aircraft or runway, you would probably not be offering it to inexperienced pilots for all the same reasons. Bear with us, and be patient, you'll get there...
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The definition of '100hours ' in these ads is often not clarified:
There's a world of difference between someone who got his PPL after 98 hours and has flown 2 hours post PPL and someone who got his PPL at, say, 50 hours and has 50 post PPL hours.
I don't think they usually mean P1 hours, but total hours in which case my argument above applies.
Most groups are flexible however: The group I joined in early 90s was a '100' hours group: They let me join at 70 hours total and did 5 hours with an instructor (it was before retractable and C/s prop sign offs were needed and the group operated a complex single out of a grass strip, so two new skills to learn).
And I'm still with that group..................
There's a world of difference between someone who got his PPL after 98 hours and has flown 2 hours post PPL and someone who got his PPL at, say, 50 hours and has 50 post PPL hours.
I don't think they usually mean P1 hours, but total hours in which case my argument above applies.
Most groups are flexible however: The group I joined in early 90s was a '100' hours group: They let me join at 70 hours total and did 5 hours with an instructor (it was before retractable and C/s prop sign offs were needed and the group operated a complex single out of a grass strip, so two new skills to learn).
And I'm still with that group..................
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I can remember having a similar feeling when I passed my skills test at 55 hours - I am licensed to fly anywhere - why do I have to do a checkout to hire at a different aerodrome?
I am now well over the 100 hour mark. I have landed at 26 different airfields so I have no problem with landing away. Having said that, my flying is still far from perfect.
Do I now think that the checkouts and time with instructors is necessary or worthwhile?
Yes and no. If you have passed your PPL - let me stick my neck out and say - yes you do know everything you need to know to fly VFR. Don't throw your training manuals away! They make a lot more interesting reading once you have experience that can relate to them.
You are required to spend an hour with an instructor every two years. Really you don't need more than that if you are not doing a different rating. Having an instructor take you around the circuit a new airfield is useful - on the other hand a briefing would be just as good.
The rest of the time with instructors are due to club rules - which has probably something to do with their insurance. Personally I find I don't learn very much - certainly not much value for money spent. Yes - you will make mistakes and the instructor will point that out to you. You already know what you have done wrong before you are told. They might give you this or that tip - often contradicting what you have been taught and what is in the aircraft's POH. They may also make you feel good by saying "nice approach" etc - so it does pump up your confidence in that sense.
Most of what I have learnt post-PPL is by learning from my own mistakes and reading. Don't forget to read the POH! Good old Flight Simulator is also useful - and it costs you next to nothing. Fly a new route on it, land at a new airfield. Photographic scenery helps. You can also practice PFLs on it - although unless you have a head mouse they are more difficult to do than in real life.
I am now well over the 100 hour mark. I have landed at 26 different airfields so I have no problem with landing away. Having said that, my flying is still far from perfect.
Do I now think that the checkouts and time with instructors is necessary or worthwhile?
Yes and no. If you have passed your PPL - let me stick my neck out and say - yes you do know everything you need to know to fly VFR. Don't throw your training manuals away! They make a lot more interesting reading once you have experience that can relate to them.
You are required to spend an hour with an instructor every two years. Really you don't need more than that if you are not doing a different rating. Having an instructor take you around the circuit a new airfield is useful - on the other hand a briefing would be just as good.
The rest of the time with instructors are due to club rules - which has probably something to do with their insurance. Personally I find I don't learn very much - certainly not much value for money spent. Yes - you will make mistakes and the instructor will point that out to you. You already know what you have done wrong before you are told. They might give you this or that tip - often contradicting what you have been taught and what is in the aircraft's POH. They may also make you feel good by saying "nice approach" etc - so it does pump up your confidence in that sense.
Most of what I have learnt post-PPL is by learning from my own mistakes and reading. Don't forget to read the POH! Good old Flight Simulator is also useful - and it costs you next to nothing. Fly a new route on it, land at a new airfield. Photographic scenery helps. You can also practice PFLs on it - although unless you have a head mouse they are more difficult to do than in real life.
100 hours is a nice round figure and is based on nothing more than an assumption that by the time you have 100 hours total time, you probably have sufficient experience to cope with a particular aeroplane or airfield. It will not apply to everyone, but its probably a good statistical average. Many pilots will have given up by 100 hours whilst some will only just have qualified; others may be highly proficient.
Groups don't like having their aircraft grounded through damage, strip owners don't want aeroplanes through the hedge so they have to set a minimum experience level. A number of insurance companies also place requirements and I am sure they have statistics to indicate a minimum level. As has already been said you can have 1000 hours of experience or you can have 1 hour 1000 times, more frequently referred to as hour building!
Groups don't like having their aircraft grounded through damage, strip owners don't want aeroplanes through the hedge so they have to set a minimum experience level. A number of insurance companies also place requirements and I am sure they have statistics to indicate a minimum level. As has already been said you can have 1000 hours of experience or you can have 1 hour 1000 times, more frequently referred to as hour building!
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The Killing Zone: How & Why Pilots Die: Amazon.co.uk: Paul A. Craig: Books
Focusses the mind a tad. You'd be amazed at some of the things us pilots do (or don't do!)
Focusses the mind a tad. You'd be amazed at some of the things us pilots do (or don't do!)
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Great Insights
Thanks to all who have taken the time to share their thoughts on this (none of which were condescending, although they could have been). I recall passing my car driving test many moons ago, and that was certainly just a ticket to start learning properly.
I think the environment of a flying club or group share would be better for several reasons - shared flyouts, validating your assessments as you gain experience.
I think the environment of a flying club or group share would be better for several reasons - shared flyouts, validating your assessments as you gain experience.
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Find a more experienced pilot who is willing to take you along on longer trips, preferably abroad so you can get rid of that artificial mental barrier nice and early. If they're not hour building and the aircraft's insurers are happy then you should be able to log some P1 time and you'll learn a lot fom the more experienced guy without having the associated costs of a FI.
I found myself landing at Berlin Templehof with 16 hrs P1 and a total of 56hrs because I put a notice up in the flying club which generated a response from someone with 900 hrs.......
I found myself landing at Berlin Templehof with 16 hrs P1 and a total of 56hrs because I put a notice up in the flying club which generated a response from someone with 900 hrs.......
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Quote:
The rest of the time with instructors are due to club rules - which has probably something to do with their insurance. Personally I find I don't learn very much - certainly not much value for money spent.
But they probably learn something about you.
The rest of the time with instructors are due to club rules - which has probably something to do with their insurance. Personally I find I don't learn very much - certainly not much value for money spent.
But they probably learn something about you.
I have flown with PPLs that are average to worrying in their abilities.
Stickandrudderman - yes that is a good idea. Did anything ever come of AOPA's mentorship scheme?
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Stickandrudderman - yes that is a good idea. Did anything ever come of AOPA's mentorship scheme?
I can imagine that there are some well meaning experienced guys who are saying, "here I am, where are my mentees?" but I think the reality is that it's a bit like car-sharing. A great idea in priciple but finding two or more people who want to leave at exactly the same time from exactly the same place and go to exactly the same destination is nigh on impossible.
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Going your own way
The alternative to the restrictions of hiring and group flying is to get your own aeroplane. You will need somewhere to keep it. If that's a farm strip you will need to convince the owner that you are a safe and considerate pilot.
One factor if you do go down that route, there is no longer someone looking over your shoulder. Learning experiences (aka mistakes) come thick and fast. Eventually you become your own FI / Mentor / Conscience.
It worked for me. With a total of 70 flying hours, I bought an LAA (PFA in those days) Permit aircraft that I could safely fly from a local farm strip. The plan was to keep it for a few years then buy a real aeroplane. That was seventeen years ago and I never got around to buying a real aeroplane. Up to the strip later to clean off the bugs from a couple of weeks touring down to SW France and the Pyrenees, in company with another fourmite and her aeroplane.
One Aviation Quotation, with similar sentiments to Pilot DAR above, which you may have already heard:
At one hundred hours, I thought I knew it all.
At five hundred hours, I knew I knew it all.
At five thousand hours, I know I'll never know it all!
Safe Flying,
Richard W.
One factor if you do go down that route, there is no longer someone looking over your shoulder. Learning experiences (aka mistakes) come thick and fast. Eventually you become your own FI / Mentor / Conscience.
It worked for me. With a total of 70 flying hours, I bought an LAA (PFA in those days) Permit aircraft that I could safely fly from a local farm strip. The plan was to keep it for a few years then buy a real aeroplane. That was seventeen years ago and I never got around to buying a real aeroplane. Up to the strip later to clean off the bugs from a couple of weeks touring down to SW France and the Pyrenees, in company with another fourmite and her aeroplane.
One Aviation Quotation, with similar sentiments to Pilot DAR above, which you may have already heard:
At one hundred hours, I thought I knew it all.
At five hundred hours, I knew I knew it all.
At five thousand hours, I know I'll never know it all!
Safe Flying,
Richard W.
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This is an interesting thread for me as I passed my PPL Skills test only three weeks ago and went for my first post-Skills test flight last week. I was just as nervous as I was prior to my QXC and found it quite scary when noone at the club checked my map or plog, just hading over the key and saying have her back by 12:30 please! The flight itself was fine and went very well but I'm certainly a long way from feeling confident enough to fly without nerves beforehand. I'm planning on flying into one or two airports I have not been to previously this Summer but the whole process is going to be slow and gentle; I'm very well aware of my limitations in terms of experience and want to just enjoy the process of gaining more.
The day you take off with no nerves at all you will start becoming dangerous. At the same time, you will still be paying a lot of money for for a lot less excitement. Do keep the nerves up!
(still below the 100 hours ceiling myself)
(still below the 100 hours ceiling myself)
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One factor if you do go down that route, there is no longer someone looking over your shoulder. Learning experiences (aka mistakes) come thick and fast. Eventually you become your own FI / Mentor / Conscience.
There's a danger in becoming over dependent on instructors. There was a recent accident that could be attributed to this.Let's see - what did I learn on my last flight?
- how flight plans work for real. Make sure it's closed - don't assume your destination ATC is going to do it for you.
- what advection fog looks like on the English Channel
- how to take off smoothly in a Cessna 152 (according to the POH raise the nose at 50 knts)
- be sure you are doing the "A" check on the correct aircraft!
- what nice people London Inf are.
- check your fuel visually before every take off even if you have only been flying for an hour (thankfully I did - both tanks were nearly empty!)