Judging height in the hold-off
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South Africa
Age: 47
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Obie2. From your vast experience in aviation, I am sure you have forgotten things 30 years ago that I am still only going to learn 5 years from now.
You clearly are highly experienced (did I see right on your profile - you flew the Concorde? WOW!!!)
You can offer so much advice and share so many experiences with someone as unexperienced as myself.
May I ask you something though, just have another look at your first post (reply) to me. Is there honestly anything in this post that could have helped me with my question (except making me think that I am useless as a pilot and should rather quit?)
Anyways, congrats on a very successful career in aviation. Many young pilots aspire to have a career as great as yours. For me, I am content being PPL, but always try to improve my skills and learn something new
You clearly are highly experienced (did I see right on your profile - you flew the Concorde? WOW!!!)
You can offer so much advice and share so many experiences with someone as unexperienced as myself.
May I ask you something though, just have another look at your first post (reply) to me. Is there honestly anything in this post that could have helped me with my question (except making me think that I am useless as a pilot and should rather quit?)
Anyways, congrats on a very successful career in aviation. Many young pilots aspire to have a career as great as yours. For me, I am content being PPL, but always try to improve my skills and learn something new
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,464
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 4,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Many young pilots aspire to have a career as great as yours.
In about 42 years of flying and roughly 10000 hours, I can only recall 2 of my landings which I would describe as 'perfect'. The kind where you really do feel absolutely no initial contact with the runway, just vibration from the runway surface as the aircraft slows down.
One was in a Hunter T7 at Brawdy in 1976, the other in a VC10K at Akrotiri in 1989.
Good landings come with practice; 'perfect' landings are very rare!
In the past 7 years I've also experienced 535 airline landings. None of which were as gentle as the technique I was required to teach in the VC10. There are alleged reasons for this to do with 'positive spin up' and 'carbon brakes' in modern people-tubes; little thought seems to be given to passenger comfort as it seems it's a 'slam it on the deck, then brake hard to make the first exit' technique....
One was in a Hunter T7 at Brawdy in 1976, the other in a VC10K at Akrotiri in 1989.
Good landings come with practice; 'perfect' landings are very rare!
In the past 7 years I've also experienced 535 airline landings. None of which were as gentle as the technique I was required to teach in the VC10. There are alleged reasons for this to do with 'positive spin up' and 'carbon brakes' in modern people-tubes; little thought seems to be given to passenger comfort as it seems it's a 'slam it on the deck, then brake hard to make the first exit' technique....
I realised that I don't know exactly how high I am from the surface of the runway ...
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Daventry UK
Posts: 487
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Beagle: Your VC10 landings must have been superb, because it's certainly my experience that long haul landings today are far smoother than they were 20 or 30 yrs ago. Back then every flight seemed to arrive with a bang and I can remember overhead lockers popping open! Today, speaking as a cattle class customer right down the back on BA and Virgin, one can always feel the trailing bogie wheel touch first and then a smooth transistion to the ground. There was an intermediate period maybe 15 yrs ago when a crew would get a round of applause from pax for a good landing, but that doesn't seem to be needed now!
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: London UK
Posts: 517
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I hesitate to give advice here (if you'd seen some of my landings you would know why :-) but could I suggest that sink rate might be more important than height in the final seconds.
Assuming you are tracking along the runway at some reasonable height and speed, then if you only descend gently, and never ever rise, it has to turn out well, so long as the runway is long enough, (or the throttle is closed enough).
Assuming you are tracking along the runway at some reasonable height and speed, then if you only descend gently, and never ever rise, it has to turn out well, so long as the runway is long enough, (or the throttle is closed enough).
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 816
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
little thought seems to be given to passenger comfort
Commercial jets are generally landing distance limited, either because the LDA and LDR are similar or, at busy airports, the runway occupancy time is critical. This necessitates vacating the runway early which effectively reduces the LDA even on a long runway. It is important to land on the aiming point, firmly if necessary, and get the brakes working immediately. If you float way past the aiming point to try to get a greaser, your landing distance calculations are invalid. A good landing in a big jet is therefore not necessarily the most gentle one, and Boeings are certainly built to take some real 'carrier deck landings'! The technique and intention is quite different to that in a light aircraft but is still largely a matter of feel. The basic framework is quite academic ie chop the thrust at a certain height, pitch up a certain number of degrees, hold it, etc but beyond this it is a matter of judgement, feel, and experience that is very difficult to describe (much like riding a bike).
In light aircraft you are generally not limited by landing distance available and so flaring and floating to achieve the gentlest possible touchdown is desirable. I won't go into it too much as I have to go and practice what I preach in a few minutes, and plenty of people have given good advice already, but I would agree that it is still largely a matter of having a good feel for your aircraft, which comes with experience. It is almost impossible to give specific tips as each type handles slightly differently, has different visual cues, speeds attitudes etc. Just remember that a good landing comes from a good approach. If you make sure that as you descend through 500ft you are on speed, on centerline, on glidepath, correctly configured, trimmed out and have an appropriate power setting then you are more than half way there to pulling off a perfect landing.
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: London
Posts: 247
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Obie2 - comments like yours are what gives PPrune a bad name. They are uncalled for and arrogant nonsense to boot.
You have had a career in flying. Well good for you. You are in the wrong forum. This is for pilots who fly for pleasure. I am more than sure that flying with you would be anything but a pleasure you crusty old maggot.
You have had a career in flying. Well good for you. You are in the wrong forum. This is for pilots who fly for pleasure. I am more than sure that flying with you would be anything but a pleasure you crusty old maggot.
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Europe
Posts: 152
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
100hours, my plane is a PA24 that will suddenly drop out of the sky and land very hard if you're too high with the flare and hold-off. Somehow I acquired some idea of the perfect height, but not by measuring the number of feet and inches.
It helps to have had good training. It also helps to have experience on tailwheel aircraft (these will teach you so much more than a C172 about good landings that I recommend it to everyone, preferably before you've developed bad habits). But in the end, only experience gives you the judgement you need to fine-tune your landings.
Every landing is different, every situation (temp/pressure, wind, weight/load, etc.) creates its own environment with its own laws determining the configuration, speeds, attitude, etc. Even after you've done a lot of them you may not be able to say that landing X was the same as Y. And in some situations the plonk-and-keep-down style is safer than an attempt to land with perfect elegance.
Happy landings!
Nazgūl Airlines
(...back to Lurking Mode...)
It helps to have had good training. It also helps to have experience on tailwheel aircraft (these will teach you so much more than a C172 about good landings that I recommend it to everyone, preferably before you've developed bad habits). But in the end, only experience gives you the judgement you need to fine-tune your landings.
Every landing is different, every situation (temp/pressure, wind, weight/load, etc.) creates its own environment with its own laws determining the configuration, speeds, attitude, etc. Even after you've done a lot of them you may not be able to say that landing X was the same as Y. And in some situations the plonk-and-keep-down style is safer than an attempt to land with perfect elegance.
Happy landings!
Nazgūl Airlines
(...back to Lurking Mode...)
The problem with 'greasers' is that they are a pilot's conceit. Because of course they exist at the very edge of the "good landing" envelope - just shy of a bounce.
Common sense tells us we should aim for the middle of that "good landing" envelope rather than the seductively gentle edge. But we all know that intense satisfaction of feeling the wheel rumble without any detectable bump - and we can't resist.
Common sense tells us we should aim for the middle of that "good landing" envelope rather than the seductively gentle edge. But we all know that intense satisfaction of feeling the wheel rumble without any detectable bump - and we can't resist.
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: suffolk
Posts: 399
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I thought that I had read just about every sort of crap on this forum.
then I read obie's post.
I reckon the nearest you have come to a real aircraft is looking at it over the fence!
Edited..greasers are all about the aircraft and the runway uniting at the perfect moment. Like all perfect moments, they will never happen if they are rushed.
As you prbably know by now, the elevator controls the speed and the throttle controls the descent when landing.
Come in with a trickle of power on, fly up the runway, don't rush, gentle hold off and then just ease the power back like you are carressing your lover and every one will be a greaser!
then I read obie's post.
I reckon the nearest you have come to a real aircraft is looking at it over the fence!
Edited..greasers are all about the aircraft and the runway uniting at the perfect moment. Like all perfect moments, they will never happen if they are rushed.
As you prbably know by now, the elevator controls the speed and the throttle controls the descent when landing.
Come in with a trickle of power on, fly up the runway, don't rush, gentle hold off and then just ease the power back like you are carressing your lover and every one will be a greaser!
Last edited by hatzflyer; 2nd Jul 2010 at 18:23.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Dublin
Posts: 2,547
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You can judge you are very close to the runway surface, but is it 1 foot or 4 foot. I am talking about the last 2 - 3 seconds of the flight ... which determines whether it will be a greaser or a landing you can feel (firm)
Given that you're a licenced pilot and seem to be looking to refine your landing rather than learn how to land, then I would suspect that you're very unlikely to be dropping it from anything more than 1.5 feet. Even that would not be doing your ego nor your passengers nerves any good!
So you're probably judging it much closer than you actual suspect
Of course where judgement is concerned it's like parking a car. The more you do it, the more accurate you learn to judge it dp
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Suffolk
Age: 70
Posts: 283
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
trickle of power
What helps for me is keeping a trickle of power on during the approach and flare - that's how I was taught and for short field to add just a touch more on roundout to reduce the rate of descent while increasing the angle of attack.
Dunno what others think of this technique?
Another thing - note how high you are off the ground when taxing - that helps in judging the height when landing .
Dunno what others think of this technique?
Another thing - note how high you are off the ground when taxing - that helps in judging the height when landing .
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wouldn't try to achieve perfection. It is virtually impossible to do consistently. One probably could achieve it in calm air, and especially so on a 3000m runway on which you have the luxury of being able to let it float along while very gently bleeding off the speed, but these conditions are rarely available.
I am around the 1200hr mark, over 9 years, most of that in my TB20 which I fly once a week on average. I have never done a mechanically lousy (structurally dangerous) landing, but only about 1-2% of my landings are "perfect". Of the rest, most are OK. Many are a bit untidy but that doesn't matter. I used to flat-spot tyres here and there, then for some years I stopped doing that (it is embarrassing) and then other week the wind gusted around just as I landed into quite a tailwind (that's my excuse) and I flat spotted a tyre pretty badly, trying to stop in the rapidly diminishing distance. That cost me £250 (2 tyres) and I felt a right d*ck. Next time this happens, I will go around (something I very rarely do, preferring to concentrate on doing a landing).
The other thing is that if you are doing a "performance landing" (trying to land in the minimum book distance) you are highly unlikely to achieve a perfect touch-down. The landing is likely to be heavy and then you will jump on the brakes ASAP.
Another factor, in the summer, is landing on a hot runway. One gets float / baloon issues and I think this is because there is a lot of hot air rising up along the middle of it. If you fly across a motorway on a hot day, say 1000ft above it, you feel a sharp bump.
Regards power during flare, I cut the power totally during the flare (gradually though).
But the most important thing of all is speed management. Doing the right speed just before flaring is vital - especially in a low wing plane which will easily float if too fast.
But the "right speed" tends to be a very low figure, and you don't want to be flying the whole final approach at that very low speed, due to control issues / stall margins. So one needs to learn to reduce the speed during the final approach, so it is correct right at the end. I am sure some will disagree with this...
I am around the 1200hr mark, over 9 years, most of that in my TB20 which I fly once a week on average. I have never done a mechanically lousy (structurally dangerous) landing, but only about 1-2% of my landings are "perfect". Of the rest, most are OK. Many are a bit untidy but that doesn't matter. I used to flat-spot tyres here and there, then for some years I stopped doing that (it is embarrassing) and then other week the wind gusted around just as I landed into quite a tailwind (that's my excuse) and I flat spotted a tyre pretty badly, trying to stop in the rapidly diminishing distance. That cost me £250 (2 tyres) and I felt a right d*ck. Next time this happens, I will go around (something I very rarely do, preferring to concentrate on doing a landing).
The other thing is that if you are doing a "performance landing" (trying to land in the minimum book distance) you are highly unlikely to achieve a perfect touch-down. The landing is likely to be heavy and then you will jump on the brakes ASAP.
Another factor, in the summer, is landing on a hot runway. One gets float / baloon issues and I think this is because there is a lot of hot air rising up along the middle of it. If you fly across a motorway on a hot day, say 1000ft above it, you feel a sharp bump.
Regards power during flare, I cut the power totally during the flare (gradually though).
But the most important thing of all is speed management. Doing the right speed just before flaring is vital - especially in a low wing plane which will easily float if too fast.
But the "right speed" tends to be a very low figure, and you don't want to be flying the whole final approach at that very low speed, due to control issues / stall margins. So one needs to learn to reduce the speed during the final approach, so it is correct right at the end. I am sure some will disagree with this...
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 433
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have over 800 hrs, around 2000+ landings. Each and every one I try to do as gently as possible. Must be doing it right as (a) never had to examine the airframe after landing (!) and (b) have had a number of comments from P2/Pax about just how gentle the touchdown was. Mind you, I don't have a CPL, ATPL or even a PPL or NPPL. Or even an engine! Which is possibly why I've developed the judegement skills to get it right first time :-)
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: southeast UK
Posts: 232
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flying is a mixture of science and art. Rely on one at the expense of the other and it gets untidy. Yes you can fly scientifically by the numbers, approach at x knots, flare at y feet and float for z metres and according to science you will land perfectly.......only you will not.
Landing is probably the most diifficult part of learning to fly because it takes judgement and practice to get it right. It is that mysterious 'feel' that practiced pilots get for the closeness of the ground and the effect of wind, heat and turbulence on your attempt at a greaser.
Live with the fact that you will not 'grease it on' every time but will arrive safely. That is all that is required.
Landing is probably the most diifficult part of learning to fly because it takes judgement and practice to get it right. It is that mysterious 'feel' that practiced pilots get for the closeness of the ground and the effect of wind, heat and turbulence on your attempt at a greaser.
Live with the fact that you will not 'grease it on' every time but will arrive safely. That is all that is required.