Importance of accurate course setting in overhead
Not so N, but still FG
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I am not suggesting a luddite approach to new technology, and integrating the GPS into pilot training might well be a good idea, but what happens to average plonker pilot when his GPS suffers a fault? Most flying skills seem to be use-or-lose skills. Is navigation an exception?
The Original Whirly
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FNG,
He dials up 121.5 and calls; "Mayday, Mayday, Mayday, my GPS has stopped functioning". Honestly, that was told at a CAA safety evening a few years ago; it happened!!! <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
He dials up 121.5 and calls; "Mayday, Mayday, Mayday, my GPS has stopped functioning". Honestly, that was told at a CAA safety evening a few years ago; it happened!!! <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
Not so N, but still FG
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!!!!!!!!!. .Picture that same guy with a radio failure (not altogether unlikely if the GPS has conked because the electrics have fried). I know that no one should ever be discouraged from calling D&D, and ordinarily there should be no recriminations for doing so, but I wonder if this person was given any, er, counselling after landing?
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Whirly
Excellent first contribution to The New Method.
Navigate using the GPS, checking periodically against ground features and ADF/VOR if fitted. Periodically also check the GPS is functioning ie picking up a useful enough signal to display meaningful groundspeed and track. Do not rely on map displays.
In the event GPS malfunction is detected and map orientation has been lost, transmit a Practice Pan - request position confirmation
Excellent first contribution to The New Method.
Navigate using the GPS, checking periodically against ground features and ADF/VOR if fitted. Periodically also check the GPS is functioning ie picking up a useful enough signal to display meaningful groundspeed and track. Do not rely on map displays.
In the event GPS malfunction is detected and map orientation has been lost, transmit a Practice Pan - request position confirmation
The Original Whirly
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twisty,
The problem with calling a Practice Pan if you have a real problem is that you're gonna feel a right idiot when they tell you they can't do it as they're dealing with a real emergency, and you have to confess. <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
Aside from that, has it occurred to ANYONE that visual nav can be FUN. <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> When a friend and I did the Dawn to Dusk competition last year (in a C152, not my favoured whirly things), our whole 8-9 hours flying was a figure-of-eight course round Wales, looking for everything from small towns to single buildings to an isolated rock, in connection with our theme. GPS would have been little use, and radio navaids not much more use as there aren't any VORs etc round there. But we had a wonderful time (and won, incidentally). And the nav I did for the CPL(H) - finding isolated buildings on OS maps; horrendous under exam conditions, but great to be able to do. And necessary if you're on the London or Paris heli-routes or similar too.
I'm not suggesting everyone navigate like this all the time; it would be slightly pointless. But it's useful - and enjoyable - to be able to do it. IMHO, to suggest it's an outdated skill is to take half the fun out of flying.
The problem with calling a Practice Pan if you have a real problem is that you're gonna feel a right idiot when they tell you they can't do it as they're dealing with a real emergency, and you have to confess. <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
Aside from that, has it occurred to ANYONE that visual nav can be FUN. <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> When a friend and I did the Dawn to Dusk competition last year (in a C152, not my favoured whirly things), our whole 8-9 hours flying was a figure-of-eight course round Wales, looking for everything from small towns to single buildings to an isolated rock, in connection with our theme. GPS would have been little use, and radio navaids not much more use as there aren't any VORs etc round there. But we had a wonderful time (and won, incidentally). And the nav I did for the CPL(H) - finding isolated buildings on OS maps; horrendous under exam conditions, but great to be able to do. And necessary if you're on the London or Paris heli-routes or similar too.
I'm not suggesting everyone navigate like this all the time; it would be slightly pointless. But it's useful - and enjoyable - to be able to do it. IMHO, to suggest it's an outdated skill is to take half the fun out of flying.
Not so N, but still FG
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I entirely agree Whirly. One of the many pleasures involved in taking my wife to Burgundy by Bulldog last year was that which I experienced when I found the tiny airstrip on a hill which was our destination, in the right place, at the right time, having got there by DR navigation alone. It was an equivalent, almost tactile, pleasure to that I experienced some years ago when sighting the harbour lights after a night crossing under sail of the Straits of Gibraltar. These old fashioned skills possess a virtue of their own. Crikey, next thing I know I'll be joining CAMRA and going Morris dancing.
As for tying up the resources of D&D because your kit has packed up and you can't be bothered to find yourself, well.... A wind up, perhaps?
As for tying up the resources of D&D because your kit has packed up and you can't be bothered to find yourself, well.... A wind up, perhaps?
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Totally agree with FNG, Whirly and others on this one!
The plane I fly most often at the moment doesn't have any nav-aids at all. But, to tell the truth, when I fly a plane which does have nav-aids, I very rarely use them.
I did make a lot of use of VORs in the USA, that's mainly because the FAA very kindly do all the hard work of drawing lines and figuring out the VOR radials for you! Even then, I always have the map next to me, and I can always point out on the map exactly where I am, by reference to features on the ground.
Plus, as Whirly says, it's fun!
As for an emergency because your nav-aids stop working, we'll leave that to the IFR guys I think!
FFF. .---------
The plane I fly most often at the moment doesn't have any nav-aids at all. But, to tell the truth, when I fly a plane which does have nav-aids, I very rarely use them.
I did make a lot of use of VORs in the USA, that's mainly because the FAA very kindly do all the hard work of drawing lines and figuring out the VOR radials for you! Even then, I always have the map next to me, and I can always point out on the map exactly where I am, by reference to features on the ground.
Plus, as Whirly says, it's fun!
As for an emergency because your nav-aids stop working, we'll leave that to the IFR guys I think!
FFF. .---------
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[quote] As for tying up the resources of D&D because your kit has packed up and you can't be bothered to find yourself, well.... A wind up, perhaps? <hr></blockquote>
D&D is funded by the state. What the state wants is to retrieve military jets with engine failure, stop you and the missus ploughing in to a hill side fair enough, but that's not the end of it. A big cost to keeping the whole show running is a PA28 flyer struggling with his map around his neck meanwhile sailing through Heathrow, Gatwick, Manchester etc.
Assume GPS etc (and you would have two obviously!)fail very rarely. When they do, just ring up D&D and ask them whether they want you to keep off their wavelength or they would like you to stay until you are out of harm's (ie other people's) way. I'd wager they'd be only too pleased to help avoid an incident.
I'm not saying The New Method is mandatory. Just don't feel guilty if you don't want to do DR after your PPL/CPL, particularly in poor visibility.
D&D is funded by the state. What the state wants is to retrieve military jets with engine failure, stop you and the missus ploughing in to a hill side fair enough, but that's not the end of it. A big cost to keeping the whole show running is a PA28 flyer struggling with his map around his neck meanwhile sailing through Heathrow, Gatwick, Manchester etc.
Assume GPS etc (and you would have two obviously!)fail very rarely. When they do, just ring up D&D and ask them whether they want you to keep off their wavelength or they would like you to stay until you are out of harm's (ie other people's) way. I'd wager they'd be only too pleased to help avoid an incident.
I'm not saying The New Method is mandatory. Just don't feel guilty if you don't want to do DR after your PPL/CPL, particularly in poor visibility.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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twistedenginestarter,
You're right, GPSs don't stop working very often, except for electrical failure, in which case carrying two would avoid the problem (which everyone does, of course!)
However, the US government reserve the right to turn off, or reduce the accuracy, of GPS, whenever they want, for whatever reason they want! Now I don't know very much about modern warfare, but with military action in the Middle East, I'd say it's not completely inconceivable that Bin Laden builds some kind of GPS-guided missile, and the US government turn GPS off completely to avoid having Washington or New York or some other big target blown up. Not likely, admitedly, but not completely inconceivable.
Sure, D&D are there to help - but can you imagine the carnage if every single PPL who happens to be flying at the time is suddenly declaring Mayday because their GPS has stopped working <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
I agree that nav-aids are there to be used, if you choose to use them. But please, whatever navaids you use, carry an up-to-date chart, make sure it's accessible, and make sure you can always point your finger at where you are on that chart within a few seconds of being asked!
FFF. .---------
[ 27 February 2002: Message edited by: FlyingForFun ]</p>
You're right, GPSs don't stop working very often, except for electrical failure, in which case carrying two would avoid the problem (which everyone does, of course!)
However, the US government reserve the right to turn off, or reduce the accuracy, of GPS, whenever they want, for whatever reason they want! Now I don't know very much about modern warfare, but with military action in the Middle East, I'd say it's not completely inconceivable that Bin Laden builds some kind of GPS-guided missile, and the US government turn GPS off completely to avoid having Washington or New York or some other big target blown up. Not likely, admitedly, but not completely inconceivable.
Sure, D&D are there to help - but can you imagine the carnage if every single PPL who happens to be flying at the time is suddenly declaring Mayday because their GPS has stopped working <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
I agree that nav-aids are there to be used, if you choose to use them. But please, whatever navaids you use, carry an up-to-date chart, make sure it's accessible, and make sure you can always point your finger at where you are on that chart within a few seconds of being asked!
FFF. .---------
[ 27 February 2002: Message edited by: FlyingForFun ]</p>
Not so N, but still FG
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Depressing how often you hear this on London Info:-
"G-XX, what is your present position?". .or
"G-XX, what is your estimate for XXXX?"
and the answer is "er, stand by"
"G-XX, what is your present position?". .or
"G-XX, what is your estimate for XXXX?"
and the answer is "er, stand by"
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How Sad to see everyone getting so het up about things. A number of good points made but sadly a lack of knowledge about aviation history on show. A few points of my own they may not be entirely accurate but here goes.. .Firstly the reason that overhead to overhead is used in flight training is historical it goes back to the halcyon days when aeroplanes, even commercial flights were non radio. In the good old days you took off into wind and to avoid crashing into the other people in the circuit you climbed to the overhead to depart. On arrival you flew overhead to check the signals square and wind tee before joining the circuit.. .Secondly the reason that VFR navigation is still taught by the good old fashion book is that it works. Properly taught it gives a solid grounding in the basic principles.. .Thirdly whilst GPS and radio nav aids are fine in their place, remember that the CAA have to consider all possibilities. Imagine as a worst case scenario you have an electrical failure, smoke in the cabin. However as you have dilligenty read the Manuals you are able to shut down the electrics before it starts a fire. You need to get down sharpish! Wouldn't you prefer to be able to divert to an aerodrome with emergency services and good runways rather than just pick a field and hope.. .If you are following your track on the map you are more aware of what's around you than just following the bug on the GPS.. .Technology is a good slave but a bad master to misquote the old saw.. .The standards that are set when you're under instruction are done to start you off as you should try to go on. . .As for departing and joining its good airmanship and just plain self preservation to get briefed on local procedure. I found that one out the hard way myself , though fortunately the only thing damaged was my pride.. .The only way to learn aerial navigation is to do it. The more you do the easier it becomes. A few more hours under your belt and you'll be departing ahead and joining cross wind with the best of them <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
[ 27 February 2002: Message edited by: Windy Militant ]</p>
[ 27 February 2002: Message edited by: Windy Militant ]</p>
I've just spent 3 weeks in the US, flying a Robbie around Southern California. I used charts ( quarter and half-mill ), a ruler and a pencil to mark the lines - nothing else. I felt since I was hour building towards the CPL(H) I may as well make it useful.
To some extent, VFR nav in the US with a map and a basic log is dead easy the ground features are so immense - only once did I get unsure of my position enough to ask the controller I was speaking to where I was, and that's because it was marginal VFR ( and that's in a helicopter, 10 minutes after I'd gone down to 500' AGL to read a roadsign ). I did use VORs for position confirmation.
On one leg, having found ( to my amazement ) that I'd held height and speed and heading reasonably well, worked out a rough groundspeed, calculated an estimate for the place I was going, I wasn't worried when I couldn't find the airfield because I knew I was a bit left of track, a bit past estimate and therefore too far, and "shouldn't the airfield be over there in relation to that lake and that road ?".
In the UK, I find nav tends to be a bit more difficult I think because there are too many features, but if you keep your eyes open, keep track of where you were and the direction you're pointing in, it's not difficult. Even if you're on a heading you can normally spot features well in advance to confirm you're on track, and that helps with the heading as well if you fly towards a handy reference point.
And as for overhead course-setting, it's not something which adds to the flexibility of a helicopter !
To some extent, VFR nav in the US with a map and a basic log is dead easy the ground features are so immense - only once did I get unsure of my position enough to ask the controller I was speaking to where I was, and that's because it was marginal VFR ( and that's in a helicopter, 10 minutes after I'd gone down to 500' AGL to read a roadsign ). I did use VORs for position confirmation.
On one leg, having found ( to my amazement ) that I'd held height and speed and heading reasonably well, worked out a rough groundspeed, calculated an estimate for the place I was going, I wasn't worried when I couldn't find the airfield because I knew I was a bit left of track, a bit past estimate and therefore too far, and "shouldn't the airfield be over there in relation to that lake and that road ?".
In the UK, I find nav tends to be a bit more difficult I think because there are too many features, but if you keep your eyes open, keep track of where you were and the direction you're pointing in, it's not difficult. Even if you're on a heading you can normally spot features well in advance to confirm you're on track, and that helps with the heading as well if you fly towards a handy reference point.
And as for overhead course-setting, it's not something which adds to the flexibility of a helicopter !
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FlyingforFun
It is indeed unlikely that GPS will be switched off or degraded by the Americans. Receivers are limited to 999 mph/kts to stop them being used by missiles and our transatlantic friends actually recently removed the deliberate error (SA was it called?) that was originally there to stop Mr Binladen.
You are right however to address risk. Because that what flying - and life - is all about.
The risk of unaided pilotage/map reading is you become lost. If you have ever been lost - I have - it is not easy to get un-lost. In the meantime you can look down and see a large airport. I looked down and saw a smallish one - fortunately I was above its control zone.
The other risk is you spend more time looking on the ground to locate yourself or gain reassurance. Using radio aids as the primary navigation method gives you more time to look out for other aircraft.
With GPS the greatest risk as far as I can discern is that people use map displays so they are not thinking about speed and track nor are they bothered about looking at a proper map. The displays do not show controlled airspace reliably (nothing to do with GPS of course) so people bowl into a zone and give this method of navigation a bad name.
It is indeed unlikely that GPS will be switched off or degraded by the Americans. Receivers are limited to 999 mph/kts to stop them being used by missiles and our transatlantic friends actually recently removed the deliberate error (SA was it called?) that was originally there to stop Mr Binladen.
You are right however to address risk. Because that what flying - and life - is all about.
The risk of unaided pilotage/map reading is you become lost. If you have ever been lost - I have - it is not easy to get un-lost. In the meantime you can look down and see a large airport. I looked down and saw a smallish one - fortunately I was above its control zone.
The other risk is you spend more time looking on the ground to locate yourself or gain reassurance. Using radio aids as the primary navigation method gives you more time to look out for other aircraft.
With GPS the greatest risk as far as I can discern is that people use map displays so they are not thinking about speed and track nor are they bothered about looking at a proper map. The displays do not show controlled airspace reliably (nothing to do with GPS of course) so people bowl into a zone and give this method of navigation a bad name.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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twistedenginestarter,
Thanks, didn't know about that speed limit on GPS. Everything else you say in your last post I agree with 100%, by the way. Except maybe spending too much time looking at the ground - that's debatable. I think I was probably guilty of that when I first got my PPL. Now I do it much less - I pick a distant object and fly towards it, and as long as I'm flying towards my object I don't need to look directly below me very often. But I can see your point.
Windy Militant,
Joining overhead is still used for exactly the same reason by non-radio airfraft - yes there are plenty of them out there! But I have to admit I can't see the point of departing from the overhead "to avoid crashing into other people in the circuit" - surely you follow the other people in the circuit, until you're pointing roughly the direction you want to go, then you leave the circuit? As for mid-airs, I'd have thought they're more likely when departing from the overhead, because then you're in the same place as the joining traffic?
Nr Fairy,
It's great flying in the US, isn't it? But I assume you didn't go too far east - because once you do, there are no immense ground features any more - except for the dessert, and that's too immense to navigate by!!! The only time I was really glad to have a VOR on board was flying from Phoenix to LA, across western Arizona and south-eastern California - there are just enough mountains to be able to navigate using pilotage, but I was glad to have a VOR to confirm my position.
FFF. .---------
Thanks, didn't know about that speed limit on GPS. Everything else you say in your last post I agree with 100%, by the way. Except maybe spending too much time looking at the ground - that's debatable. I think I was probably guilty of that when I first got my PPL. Now I do it much less - I pick a distant object and fly towards it, and as long as I'm flying towards my object I don't need to look directly below me very often. But I can see your point.
Windy Militant,
Joining overhead is still used for exactly the same reason by non-radio airfraft - yes there are plenty of them out there! But I have to admit I can't see the point of departing from the overhead "to avoid crashing into other people in the circuit" - surely you follow the other people in the circuit, until you're pointing roughly the direction you want to go, then you leave the circuit? As for mid-airs, I'd have thought they're more likely when departing from the overhead, because then you're in the same place as the joining traffic?
Nr Fairy,
It's great flying in the US, isn't it? But I assume you didn't go too far east - because once you do, there are no immense ground features any more - except for the dessert, and that's too immense to navigate by!!! The only time I was really glad to have a VOR on board was flying from Phoenix to LA, across western Arizona and south-eastern California - there are just enough mountains to be able to navigate using pilotage, but I was glad to have a VOR to confirm my position.
FFF. .---------
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Intercept
I was shown a method where if your initial track is from an airfield, (or overhead), instead turn towards it and try to intercept the track 30deg more. Then once abeam the centre of the airfield and approaching track, you turn 30deg back and now you are on your initial track! (Hope that made sense!) If i could draw a diag to explain i would!
