Airmanship.
Not so N, but still FG
Join Date: May 2000
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Sennadog, the incidents you describe do sound like bad manners/poor lookout, but one thing to bear in mind is that it can in some circumstances be safe and appropriate not to fly the circuit in exactly the way that you do when learning. What may seem to a student or low hours PPL to be cutting in may be a faster aircraft overtaking safely.
. .At Waltham, which, as pointed out above, operates excellent by the book A/G, you sometimes hear people flying wide downwinds gripe about aircraft joining from overhead and quite legitimately positioning for a tighter downwind ahead of the other aircraft. I once heard a slow aircraft announce that he would, quite sensibly, make one orbit in circuit direction on downwind, to allow a fast complex to pass him. The complex then complained of an aircraft flying the wrong way in the circuit nd threatened an airprox, which was nonsense. The point here is that the pilot in the slow machine was using eyes, ears and judgment, the other one was simply following his set way of doing a circuit, and not even paying attention to other people's transmissions.
Another point is that, as Girl Flyday has observed on the other airmanship thread, see and avoid is no guarantee of safety: anyone who says that he/she has never been surprised by another aircraft hoving into view at closeish range is either fibbing or has Superman-vision and reflexes.
As for filing mandatory reports and so forth, I would suggest that, unless something very dire has occurred, you might be better off filing a CHIRP. These are often followed up and do achieve results, for example in relation to A/G or FISO operators overstepping the boundariers. A system which does not operate on the blame culture can sometimes be more productive of positive change than one which forces people onto the defensive.
. .At Waltham, which, as pointed out above, operates excellent by the book A/G, you sometimes hear people flying wide downwinds gripe about aircraft joining from overhead and quite legitimately positioning for a tighter downwind ahead of the other aircraft. I once heard a slow aircraft announce that he would, quite sensibly, make one orbit in circuit direction on downwind, to allow a fast complex to pass him. The complex then complained of an aircraft flying the wrong way in the circuit nd threatened an airprox, which was nonsense. The point here is that the pilot in the slow machine was using eyes, ears and judgment, the other one was simply following his set way of doing a circuit, and not even paying attention to other people's transmissions.
Another point is that, as Girl Flyday has observed on the other airmanship thread, see and avoid is no guarantee of safety: anyone who says that he/she has never been surprised by another aircraft hoving into view at closeish range is either fibbing or has Superman-vision and reflexes.
As for filing mandatory reports and so forth, I would suggest that, unless something very dire has occurred, you might be better off filing a CHIRP. These are often followed up and do achieve results, for example in relation to A/G or FISO operators overstepping the boundariers. A system which does not operate on the blame culture can sometimes be more productive of positive change than one which forces people onto the defensive.
niknak
Join Date: Dec 2001
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Sennadog - Although the instances you and others describe are unacceptable and just poor airmanship, the fact is that they are relatively rare and are not representitive of the generally high standard of flying in the UK.. .In 20 years of atco - ing and flying (ppl), working at busy airfields inside and outside controlled airspace, I can count the number of occasions on one hand when I've had to take avoiding action either as an atco or pilot.. .I wouldn't get too vexed about it, as you can see from the posts some people do and they'll worry their lives away. Filing paperwork only has a purpose if someone deliberately breaks the rules or there is a very valid safety issue which we can all learn from.
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Chilli Monster. .. .Thanks for pasting the link to the other threads which I mad missed.. .. .Unbelievable stuff!. .. .I had these sort of pilots in mind when I said that the buck stops in the LHS - even if some of them don't seem to practice good airmanship, we still have to avoid the b*ggers.. .. .I would agree though that there is a problem if an aircraft is making an approach in IMC and another a/c flies through the area - difficult to see and avoid, worse if there is no Radar to provide separartion.. . . . <small>[ 04 March 2002, 10:08: Message edited by: Final 3 Greens ]</small>
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Join Date: Dec 2001
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Yeah well. I've not got a real beef about it other than being surprised that there are as many muppets in the air as on the road. I just thought that a PPL being relatively harder to obtain than a Driving Licence would lead to a "better standard of driving"! . .. .I have to say that the guys in the Tower at Lydd are pretty good though. For a novice student like myself it's reassuring to hear the laid back but switched on voices coming through my headset - helps me to relax a bit anyway.
Join Date: Feb 2002
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In reply to Eyeinthesky's observation about Lydd radio, my understanding was that Lydd Operated a Flight Information Service and not just an A/G service.. .. .A FISO CAN control and issue positive instructions to aircraft, but ONLY whilst they are on the ground. Once an aircraft reaches the hold they cease to be under the FISO's control.. .. .Julian
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Julian: I am aware of that. I addressed them on first call as 'Information' and the response was from 'Radio', hence my comments. But even if it WAS Information, it was ILLEGAL and DANGEROUS to give line up instructions.
