Advice on landing

[Cloudwatcher]

I'm in the circuit now and I've got a real problem landing... I can get it on the ground but with a bit of a thud. Before circuits my landings were pretty good but know I'm feeling a bit dissolusioned. My instructer has said that my approaches are good but for some reason during the last 20ft I seem to get it all wrong. It goes something like this. Instructer. "Look at the orange boards at the end of the runway, now keep flying it ... keep flying it ... keep flyi... THUD, Ah a bit on the heavy side" Me."B******s.. .Instructer."never mind full power and try again".. .My instructer has said that I'm not the only one and that my flying is generally good, but I still wonder whether it will ever come good.. .The last two times (the only two times)in the circuit I've had to cope with a fairly strong crosswind (about 15 kts) and a strong headwind about (20kts gusting 27kts).. .Will it ever get any better?. .Any advice would be well recieved.

Thanks in advance. .Cloudwatcher

[no sponsor]

I think everyone goes through a bad patch at some point during their training. I would say that you just need some more practice over another hour or so.

One thing to bear in mind is that in a strong headwind, try and avoid the tendancy to flare as excessively as you would in a mild 5-10 knot headwind. The aircraft will sink too fast, and you'll get the thud on landing.

Apart from that - congrats in landing in a 15 knot crosswind - that's no mean feat in an aircraft that probably has no more than a 17 knot maximum!

[Positive Climb]

Hi Cloudwatcher,

first and foremost, you mustn't get disillusioned - you hang in there, keep working on your technique and you will crack it. Alot is to do with confidence - a couple of decent touchdowns and you will feel far more positive.

Everybody goes through stages like this when they are learning to fly - the secret is to have faith in your instructor and keep practising hard.

One of the fundamental concepts of landing any aircraft is transfering your focal point from the touchdown point (i.e. your target point on the runway during the approach) to what is termed 'looking long'.

As you cross the threshold of the runway, look down towards the far end of the runway, although don't focus on anything specific. By doing this your peripheral vision allows you to judge your descent rate as you get close to the ground and therefore allows you to flare at the correct point and subsequently hold the aircraft in the landing attitude.

I tend to find that if I am having a run of poor landings, it is because I am failing to transfer my focal point at the correct moment.

Good Luck - and remember, a good landing is not necessarily a 'greaser'. It is simply putting the aircraft on the runway in the right place at the correct speed.

[ornithopter]

Good words from those above, but one thing that I found helped me, was to relax. As part of your checks on final, say (mentally) 'relax' to yourself and physically loosen your shoulders and legs. Being tense in the flare always causes a thump! If you are having some bad landings, then you will probably be more tense next time and it gets worse. We have all been there, so don't worry or get despondant, part of the joy is that it is a challenge. Don't finish flying when you touch the ground either, fly the aircraft until you have stopped. Too often when I was learning I would stop concentrating after touching down and then a bounce would take me by surprise.

Hang in there. You'll get it in the end.

[Evo7]

Do a search for "Landings" in the Private Flying forum. I asked a question last year, and got many very helpful replies.

I'd like to say it gets better, but some of my landings are still a bit dodgy. Some are OK <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[Who has control?]

Good advice in the above, the only thing I can add is get the speed right, its a lot easier to land it when you are slower. My better landings have come after an approach when I have nailed the speed. I've also heard that most pilots don't flare enough either, but thats thats open to comment.

Having said that, my last greaser was made directly into the sun & I couldn't see the runway.

So, watch the speed, relax, look at the end of the runway, flare positively and keep flying it onto the ground - add power if need be.

But we've all been there at one stage or another, I wouldn't try to land in a 15knot X-wind, I wouldn't even be flying so you are getting very good practise.

A good landing is one you can walk away from, but a great landing is one when you can still use the aircraft afterwards!

<img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Moved to Private Flying.

WWW

[DESCEND WHEN READY]

I am not sure what sort of aircraft you are flying in however my guess would be either high wing cessna or low wing warrior. A low wing allows a more cushioning effect close to the ground which aids in managing you rate of descent more easily.. .The hight wing cessna does not have the same cushioning effect but tends to float if you above your nominated airspeed. A positive landing is a good indication that you are landing at the minimum possible speed. This is a good sign!!

Remember firstly that in the last 20' you are going from a slightly nose down attitude to nose up. This is a big change in attitude and inertia. Never rush to get the aircraft on the ground. This is a common problem where people feel pressured in getting the plane on the ground. This happens normally due to a case of excess speed.

I have also found that people go straight into the flare attitude as soon as they reduce power. Try and do the attitude changes in stages. Close throttle and then fly in straight and level attitude until excess speed has washed off. When you fell the sink slower raise the nose onto the end of the runway (orange boards). Rush it, especially in a cessna, and you will have a balloon.

The last piece of advice is try doing some flapless landings. These help in an number of ways. They give a good prospective of the flare attitude, keep your feet working hard and normally end up being greasers. Gets the confidence up.

There is light at the end of the rainbow. GOOD LUCK!!!

[Zeke]

Cloudwatcher,

First and foremost it is normal to progress well and then hit a learning plateau before something clicks and you start progressing again.

It is also not uncommon for some people to actually go backwards in performance, this is less common in highly motivated self sponsored students.

With regarding to landing, a good landing starts with a good approach. Nail the speeds on base and finals by setting the correct attitude (within a few knots, don’t chase the airspeed).

Think about what the wind is doing to you on base and finals, I have founds many people have bad landings when the crosswind is such they have a tailwind on base, they end up high when they turn finals and the landing is already pear shaped.

Adjust you power on base to achieve a constant check height mid base of ľ of your circuit altitude (750’ agl for most). Don’t just set one power setting for all weather conditions.

Lower the nose (release some back pressure) in the turn on finals to maintain a constant IAS.

On finals I normally just go back to three words, aim point, center line, airspeed, get those three factors stabilized, aircraft trimmed the aircraft will fly itself down.

If you are having trouble judging the flare height some low passes along the runway at flare height will help you see what you should look at when you flare, I have found that I don’t actually look at the end of the runway when I land I look to a point closer to the aircraft, a low pass maintain s&l will sort out what you should look at.

The actual landing for people who are having difficulty I get them to fly s&l along the runway maybe half the runway length, then get the student to bring the power back to idle and ask them to try and maintain s&l. As the aircraft slows you automatically raise the nose attitude to maintain s&l and without knowing it you have actually correctly flared the aircraft in the correct landing attitude.

As they master this I bring the point the student brings back the power, thus bringing the touch down point closer and closer to the aim point used on finals.

Breaking the landing maneuver into smaller achievable actions based upon prior learning (ie flying s&l) seems to get the student progressing again.

Hope this helps

Z

[MikeSamuel]

I read your post with interest, as it tells of exactly the same problems I was having over my last few lessons. My flying was fine until the last 20ft, and my landings were poor.. .Last week, I had my first lesson in 6 weeks, so off I went determined to nail the landings...First landing in 6 weeks, almost perfect I didn't focus on anything in particular, I just kept monitoring the whole picture in view, and as I felt I had the level attitude in the picture, I maintained it, and chopped a bit of the power off.. .There's a hell of a lot to think about on finals, just do one thing at a time, keep a touchdown point in mind, and try to stick to it...Worked for me <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Best of Luck,

Mike

[A7E Driver]

Some specific advice instead of motherhood.

Don't just look at the far horizon --- as you start the flare BRING THE FRONT COWLING UP TO MATCH THE LEVEL OF THE HORIZON LINE. The first couple of times you do this you will baloon. Go around. As you get used to doing this specific movement -- you will gradually get the feel for how fast you need to bring the cowling up to to the horizon to avoid the baloon --- and you will immediatley know if you are flaring too high -- and can make a very gentle correction. Soon you'll be greasing them every time. Good luck.

[Fuji Abound]

I personally think you should read Zeke's a few times.

I think everyone wants to land too soon, probably because we read all those stories about running off the end. The very last bit of the landing therefore becomes rushed and you never have a chance to really develop the final picture.

Also in the final moments there is a tendency to just let things happen so you really do not feel totally in control. With Zeke’s suggestion you can get use to using power to cushion the final landing or just holding the aircraft in the flair for a bit longer.

Of course, I am not advocating this on a short runway, but do go and try exactly what Zeke recommends with your instructor. Then after landing, try and keep the nose wheel of the ground for as long as you can because then you are still maintaining a similar attitude. You should be able to keep the nose wheel off for a surprising distance with practice!

Finally, as someone else said I remember when I was training I never realized how important it was to get the speed correct. Your life will be a whole lot easier if it is really spot on, not just there abouts, particularly in some types like the PA28.

[dublinpilot]

I had a similar problem at that stage. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

But one it clicked, it stayed clicked

Why did I finally get it to click? Different instuctor!!

First instructor made me so paranoid about the approach speed, "you must maintain it all the way to the ground", that I was flaring too late, trying to maintain speed. Therefore I was concentrating so much on my landing spot so that I wouldn't hit it with the prop, that I lost perspective on the big picture. Just driving a car, if you concentrate on a spot too close, you will make big adjustments to fix small errors!!

Yes, it's important that you don't lose too much speed and stall the plane, but there comes a point that you need to stop looking at the speed, and concentrate outside. Ask your instructor at what point, you need to make a "last look" at your speed.

Then try to focus further down the runway, rather than your landing spot.

And don't be afraid to try circuits with a different instructor. Different instructors suit different people, and another may be better able to explain where you are going wrong, in terms that make sence to you.

Last piece of advise, is to trim early on final. Even if it's not trimed exactly, having approximatatly trimed, will be a big help over not trimmed.

You will get it, so stick with it.

[ 18 February 2002: Message edited by: dublinpilot ]</p>

[Don D Cake]

I started circuits in earnest this Saturday. I read the theory, listened intently to the preflight briefing, you know, raise the nose at 20', let the aircraft sink, keep raising the nose smoothly, the main wheels touch first, then lower the nose wheel on to the tarmac. Doesn't seem that difficult, does it? Then the reality. What the **** does 20' look like from the cockpit of a PA28? Arrghh, that ground looks very hard and it's coming to meet me very quickly. Raise the nose, how much? Oops, that's too much is it? Oh, don't lower it that much, okay, CRUNCH, oh we're flying again, how do I get it down? CRUNCH, this bounce doesn't seem as high as the last one, THUD, rumble, can I log three landings for that?

After a few more, only slightly less seismic, landings I drove home feeling pretty disappointed. After some thought I realised that perhaps things weren't so bad. When I first learned to drive a car I wondered if the thing could ever go in a straight line, I felt exhausted after an hours lesson. Now I can steer in a straight line while changing stations on the radio, drinking coffee and swearing at other drivers. I guess (I hope) that landing's sort of the same, it's just a matter of practicing.

[Skylark4]

Remember that you do not suddenly change from `approach` to `flare`. If you read any report on flight testing an aircraft in Pilot or similar, at some point it will say something like `85 Knots on the approach and 70 over the hedge`. Think of it as a smooth transition from descent to float. You should aim to have the aircraft floating along one foot above the runway whilst the speed bleeds off. You just keep pulling back on the stick until it wont fly anymore and it will settle onto the ground. If you have the wind straight down the runway, you can practise the hold off by coming in fast and just holding off until you chicken out and go around or you land. Don`t try that on a short runway though.

Mike W

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

John Farley has an excellent article in the latest Flyer mag. Now I'm not an expert (PPL (just)), but I find that John's recommendations about setting up the approach truly help me. The times that I get it wrong (about 50%) it's because I haven't got the approach speed right and the aircraft isn't trimmed properly. Also, my instructor talks about 65kts approach with 60 over the fence; I think this echos the remarks of those above. Finally (no pun intended), I find that looking at the far end of the runway/horizon is the only solution when sorting-out the 'flare'.

PS. I bet you are so elated when it actually works properly. To me, this is what makes flying a bit like a good round of golf.

PPS. You're welcome to watch me float down the runway prior to a firm landing at Denham any time!!

[Cloudwatcher]

Thanx for all of your replies, it certainly makes me feel better to know that I'm not the only one who has this temporary problem.Weather and work permitting I'll be off again this afternoon with renewed confidence.It's looking windy though so it will be interesting to see how I get on.. .Someone made the point about being tense on the approach , and the more I think about the more I realise how true this probarbly is, I seem to grip the yoke and throttle like grim death and after landing (or rather controlled crashing) 6 times I feel exhausted.. .Anyway through practise comes better performance.

Cheers. .Cloudwatcher

ps If you are near Shoreham this afternoon give me a wave, or better still stand at the end of the runway and give me something to focus on.

Just kidding

[Fuji Abound]

Let us know how you get on this afternoon if it is not too windy. Now we know you are at Shoreham you have at least got a reasonable length of runway.