Safety: Does attitude count for more than experience?
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Glouc
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think this is a very interesting discussion and trancends all types of flying. The gliding world is no exeception. The number of pilots I know with thousands of hours yet seem to want to pick who does their check flying carefully because they are "old friends" who know them well. When I was a relatively new instructor, I frequently came up against the "cross-cockpit authority gradient" picking up basic faults/bad habits with people with infinately more experience than myself and trying to find the best way of pointing it out....
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Cambridge, England, EU
Posts: 3,443
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
a G1000 ... is bound to reduce the perceived risk
What a G1000 says to me is "when that screen goes blank in cloud, what would I rather be flying, something with a blank screen or something with a full set of steam gauges?".
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Age: 35
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We in GA are not so lucky. It is difficult for instructors to "simulate" events in real life that could over load a pilot and see how the pilot reacts. Never the less some instructors are able to achieve this.
B: "sure, no problem"
A: "Ok, give me a climb at 65kts 300fpm, turn heading 215 while climbing. Tell me how much fuel is on board and how much time aloft we roughly have "
B: "we have 2 hours an-"
A: "Engine failure"
Done.
In order to become a private pilot here in Argentina you have to undergo a test (MSG I believe its called) that pretty much tests your ability to multitask and function under extreeme pressure.
On your first medical examination you will be tortured with the following test:
You'd have a mouse on your left hand that moves a cursor up and down, but its motion will be reversed. You have to follow an arrow which moves (erraticaly) up and down on the left side of a computer screen. You will hold another mouse on your right hand which will be controlling another cursor that you must keep inside a small circle that jitters and moves randomly across the screen. You will do this for 5 minutes non stop.
After that they will add a set of yellow lights on each corner of the screen. Left mouse controls the lights on the left and right mouse the ones on the right. Inner clicks will turn off the lower lights and the outer mouse button will turn off the upper lights. The lights will come on and off randomly and you have to click the correct mouse button to turn it off. Keep doing this for another 5 minutes
At the end they will throw at you simple math calculations for another 5 more minutes. In order to submit the answer you have to release one of the mouses to type the 1-numerical-character answer on the numpad and continue will all the previous tasks. If you took too long to key in the answer another calculation would be given to you.
After that test I actually felt kind of dizzy and sick, never been so stressed in my whole life and I really mean it. It was incredible to see how many times you would brainfreeze under the extreme pressure of the test because you knew your medical depended on the outcome of that test (I dont know if they can actually denny your medical on those grounds, but you surely didnt be the first to find out).
great training device
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 4,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Especially as the speed band between stall and overspeed, at FL350, is probably only about 30kt or so wide, so you have to get it reasonably right. Even reading the instruments might have been hard.
You may not have seen the program - the theory goes something along the lines on the bus that you set 85% power and one stage of flaps and without further ado the aircraft will maintain a 5% nose up and a speed above the stall - or something like that. There is almost no need to fly attitude or adjust the throttles. The point was made that because the auto throttles on the bus do not physically adjust the position of the throttles in the quadrant a glance at the throttles tells you nothing. The suggestion is that the first thing the crew should have done when the autopilot dropped out was to adjust the power - whether they did we dont know, but on numerous other occasions when the ASI failed the crew took too long to make this adjustment. You are of course correct extreme turbulence could have made doing anything in the cockpit tuff.
Palou89
Interesting.
I think it is suggested the key is not so much being good at multi tasking but almost the opposite - the ability to prioritise and to focus on the key task that makes the difference between life and death. Very simply put the pilot is flying glass, not instrument rated and finds the weather closing in around him. He is asking air traffic for a change in direction when the screen fails and his girl friend pukes. We all know that at that moment he should simply ignore the radio call and the girlfriend, fly the aircraft and "deal" with the "emergency". In fact he feels pressurised into finishing his call with AT or sorting out a bag for the girlfriend.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I did see the BBC2 prog. AIUI, to achieve a given speed, you need a) a specific engine power and b) a specific pitch attitude. Just setting the flaps won't do. That's true for any aircraft.
How you set the pitch attitude on an Airbus, I don't know. Any decent autopilot should have a mode for that (mine has) but in "fully manual", I suppose one has to use the yoke/stick.
How you set the pitch attitude on an Airbus, I don't know. Any decent autopilot should have a mode for that (mine has) but in "fully manual", I suppose one has to use the yoke/stick.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 647
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IO540 wrote: "So what does that leave, as factors affecting fatalities?
It leaves the pilot and his training!
The next level of analysis would try to separate the effect of pilot's attitude from his training.
Neither has changed since GA was invented . . ." [snip]
Not entirely, or at least not everywhere. Recent experience in Sweden has halved or better their GA accident record, as I understand it.
In 1998 (or thereabouts), the Swedish CAA teamed up with the flying clubs' umbrella organisation to start a ten year program with a very ambitious goal: to reduce the accident rate, in particular fatal accidents, with 50% within those ten years. The program, called H50P, ended in 2008 with an astonishing result: success!
See Privatflygarens drifthandbok - Transportstyrelsen
and at:
H50P
Chris N
It leaves the pilot and his training!
The next level of analysis would try to separate the effect of pilot's attitude from his training.
Neither has changed since GA was invented . . ." [snip]
Not entirely, or at least not everywhere. Recent experience in Sweden has halved or better their GA accident record, as I understand it.
In 1998 (or thereabouts), the Swedish CAA teamed up with the flying clubs' umbrella organisation to start a ten year program with a very ambitious goal: to reduce the accident rate, in particular fatal accidents, with 50% within those ten years. The program, called H50P, ended in 2008 with an astonishing result: success!
See Privatflygarens drifthandbok - Transportstyrelsen
and at:
H50P
Chris N
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chris any chance you could summarise what the key actions were to get that cracking reduction in fatalities.
Sorry my Swedish is limited to 4 words and two of them arn't used in polite company.
Sorry my Swedish is limited to 4 words and two of them arn't used in polite company.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 4,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I did see the BBC2 prog. AIUI, to achieve a given speed, you need a) a specific engine power and b) a specific pitch attitude. Just setting the flaps won't do. That's true for any aircraft.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: England
Posts: 858
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think this is a very interesting discussion and trancends all types of flying. The gliding world is no exeception. The number of pilots I know with thousands of hours yet seem to want to pick who does their check flying carefully because they are "old friends" who know them well. When I was a relatively new instructor, I frequently came up against the "cross-cockpit authority gradient" picking up basic faults/bad habits with people with infinately more experience than myself and trying to find the best way of pointing it out....
-as you will find out when you have been on here a little longer
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 4,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pull what
- again I think this isnt quite the message you imagine.
It is not the pilot's attitude in its simplistic terms that matters but his ability to prioritise when the chips are down.
A gungho attitude may well get you into the sh*t in the first place but it is the ability to prioritise that may get you out of it. That, at any rate, is the message I think.
- again I think this isnt quite the message you imagine.
It is not the pilot's attitude in its simplistic terms that matters but his ability to prioritise when the chips are down.
A gungho attitude may well get you into the sh*t in the first place but it is the ability to prioritise that may get you out of it. That, at any rate, is the message I think.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 647
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can't remember where I've seen it, but I found a brief description of the Swedish program to reduce GA accidents. As well as the Swedish civil aviation authority producing a series of educational materials, I believe there was a movement to establish one or two people in each flying club or at each aerodrome whose job was to champion safety. I don't know exactly what they did, and efforts are being made to try and get some translation from Swedish.
Chris N
Chris N
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Retford, UK
Posts: 476
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's a debating point which pilot is the safer..
(a) The very careful vfr-only guy who only ever flies on nice days and goes to airfields that he's thoroughly researched and have nice long tarmac runways. Doesn't matter so much about his sky-god emergency handling because he'll be very unlucky to be put to the test.
(b) The one who flies far more hours, pushes the envelope and gets into many situations that challenge his skill. He is much more likely to be able to cope with an emergency than (a) but then is much more likely to get into that situation in the first place.
I guess we all make our choices about this, interesting talking point though.
(a) The very careful vfr-only guy who only ever flies on nice days and goes to airfields that he's thoroughly researched and have nice long tarmac runways. Doesn't matter so much about his sky-god emergency handling because he'll be very unlucky to be put to the test.
(b) The one who flies far more hours, pushes the envelope and gets into many situations that challenge his skill. He is much more likely to be able to cope with an emergency than (a) but then is much more likely to get into that situation in the first place.
I guess we all make our choices about this, interesting talking point though.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MichaelJP
I could not agree with you more especially regarding private flying where you can choose your day and weather!
Its the pilot who knows his limitations and keeps within those that are safe.
It is often said that an accident is not one mistake but an accumulation which results in loss of control.
I suggest overload/panic as the point that the plot is lost.
Going back to my Graphics card and computer memory theory some pilots have more ability than others and will handle more before that point is reached others will loose the plot very early.
Through training experience etc you are adding more and more to the computer banks meaning less Graphics card memory requirement.
If you naturally have a low ability or graphics card memory you can get around that by loading the main memory through training and experience.
I firmly believe if you do use an aircraft for private flying in bad conditions do a stint in a simulator and practice being overloaded so at least you know how you react and how to improve on that as well as where your natural limits really lie.
Pace
I could not agree with you more especially regarding private flying where you can choose your day and weather!
Its the pilot who knows his limitations and keeps within those that are safe.
It is often said that an accident is not one mistake but an accumulation which results in loss of control.
I suggest overload/panic as the point that the plot is lost.
Going back to my Graphics card and computer memory theory some pilots have more ability than others and will handle more before that point is reached others will loose the plot very early.
Through training experience etc you are adding more and more to the computer banks meaning less Graphics card memory requirement.
If you naturally have a low ability or graphics card memory you can get around that by loading the main memory through training and experience.
I firmly believe if you do use an aircraft for private flying in bad conditions do a stint in a simulator and practice being overloaded so at least you know how you react and how to improve on that as well as where your natural limits really lie.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 1st Jun 2010 at 21:08.
Attitude or Experience?
The CAA here in the UK hold GA Safety Evenings every year.
Until very recently it was the case that no light aircraft pilot who had ever attended such a meeting had been killed flying. They used to say half-jokingly that, almost by definition, they had the wrong audiences present!
I think that answers the question fairly well.
The CAA here in the UK hold GA Safety Evenings every year.
Until very recently it was the case that no light aircraft pilot who had ever attended such a meeting had been killed flying. They used to say half-jokingly that, almost by definition, they had the wrong audiences present!
I think that answers the question fairly well.
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Oxford, UK
Posts: 1,546
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
cowboy or chicken?
From my own experience, I don't think you can pidgeonhole people that precisely. After more than three thousand hours, the (few!) times I have come close to making a smoking hole in the ground were when I was showing off, to put it plainly. Being aware of an audience I wanted to impress. Being impatient because those dummies on the ground couldn't get their act together.
I hope I have learned from the frights then suffered that I can now recognise the trend in my own behavior and back off! Older and a little bit wiser.
Anyone else on this thread willing to admit it?
I hope I have learned from the frights then suffered that I can now recognise the trend in my own behavior and back off! Older and a little bit wiser.
Anyone else on this thread willing to admit it?
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Age: 60
Posts: 491
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Almost at 1000hrs, have always tried new and challenging stuff, in the early days it was quite a bit of aero's, later longer distance flights like Brisbane to Singapore in a light twin etc etc..
Had a few emergencies and it is safe to say that although they all ended well, when looking retrospectively there were a number of things that could have gone better and subsequent revisions of POH and other material in slow time were able to give me answers which locked in the experience.
I think though that in every case, the primary thought in my head was "fly the aeroplane and when I have stable flight and time, think about everything else...", there might just be something in that....
Had a few emergencies and it is safe to say that although they all ended well, when looking retrospectively there were a number of things that could have gone better and subsequent revisions of POH and other material in slow time were able to give me answers which locked in the experience.
I think though that in every case, the primary thought in my head was "fly the aeroplane and when I have stable flight and time, think about everything else...", there might just be something in that....
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK
Age: 85
Posts: 697
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some of you are missing the point here with GA flying.
Unlike professional pilots, including RAF pilots, GA pilots start doing it as a hobby. It requires the incentive, the time and not least the money to learn to fly and to continue to fly. Hobbyists (of all sorts) do not consider that they require personality examinations in order for them to learn, a medical is considered enough.
So you get people who are older than they should be and you get people who are less able than they should be. Enthusiasm more than the pro's, abilities maybe less than the pro's. That's what amateur aviation and every other hobby is all about.
Having said that, and excluding the few mad sods that I have met, most GA pilots take in a lot of information about safe flying and good luck to them all.
The answer is the way we are all relicensed with maybe better ways of spotting those bad habits that we are all guilty of.
Unlike professional pilots, including RAF pilots, GA pilots start doing it as a hobby. It requires the incentive, the time and not least the money to learn to fly and to continue to fly. Hobbyists (of all sorts) do not consider that they require personality examinations in order for them to learn, a medical is considered enough.
So you get people who are older than they should be and you get people who are less able than they should be. Enthusiasm more than the pro's, abilities maybe less than the pro's. That's what amateur aviation and every other hobby is all about.
Having said that, and excluding the few mad sods that I have met, most GA pilots take in a lot of information about safe flying and good luck to them all.
The answer is the way we are all relicensed with maybe better ways of spotting those bad habits that we are all guilty of.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
no light aircraft pilot who had ever attended such a meeting had been killed flying
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some of you are missing the point here with GA flying.
Unlike professional pilots, including RAF pilots, GA pilots start doing it as a hobby. It requires the incentive, the time and not least the money to learn to fly and to continue to fly. Hobbyists (of all sorts) do not consider that they require personality examinations in order for them to learn, a medical is considered enough.
So you get people who are older than they should be and you get people who are less able than they should be. Enthusiasm more than the pro's, abilities maybe less than the pro's. That's what amateur aviation and every other hobby is all about.
Having said that, and excluding the few mad sods that I have met, most GA pilots take in a lot of information about safe flying and good luck to them all.
The answer is the way we are all relicensed with maybe better ways of spotting those bad habits that we are all guilty of.
Unlike professional pilots, including RAF pilots, GA pilots start doing it as a hobby. It requires the incentive, the time and not least the money to learn to fly and to continue to fly. Hobbyists (of all sorts) do not consider that they require personality examinations in order for them to learn, a medical is considered enough.
So you get people who are older than they should be and you get people who are less able than they should be. Enthusiasm more than the pro's, abilities maybe less than the pro's. That's what amateur aviation and every other hobby is all about.
Having said that, and excluding the few mad sods that I have met, most GA pilots take in a lot of information about safe flying and good luck to them all.
The answer is the way we are all relicensed with maybe better ways of spotting those bad habits that we are all guilty of.
Totally agree with what you have said above. Safety evenings or anything else which encourages pilots to know their limits and to remain within those limits are one tool. It is a bit like teaching pilots to avoid a stall so they never have to deal with recovering from one. Then one day with all the avoidance a situation occurs where the pilot has to recover for real so he is trained not only to avoid but to recover too.
It is rarely one mistake which causes an accident but an accumulation of mistakes which lead to a crash.
I am not really talking about pilots flying in good weather within their limitations or being encouraged to fly within their limitations but more pilots who either through stupidity get home itis or whatever find themselves in a situation where events are quickly putting them in a situation where they cannot cope. Brain freeze is the final killer which causes those pilots to make innapropriate descisions or control inputs and knowing your own natural overload limits, how to improve them to avoid them is not only useful for professionals but any pilot hobby or otherwise.
Some time in a simulator or even in an aircraft with a suitable instructor who purposely loads you till you loose the plot can be an eye opener as making you realise where your limits lie and that does vary hugely from pilot to pilot.
Many of us think we are better more capable than what we are and such an experience can be very humbling which is far better than being humbled or worse for real and in a nasty real situation. We have all had brushes like Mary quotes above (I have had plenty) which are a wake up call and neatly get loaded into our computer memory banks as experience! that is if we are lucky enough to survive.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 2nd Jun 2010 at 08:29.