Trip to Quiberon LFEQ
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Joined: Feb 2010
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From: NE England
Trip to Quiberon LFEQ
Not sure if this is on the right forum (or whether it should be on at all!) but I'm holidaying (by car) with my family in Carnac, Southern Brittany in June. There is a possibility that I may need to be in London for 2 - 3 hours, then back to Carnac on 18 June.
Am happy to cover costs, share flying etc. (I have an IMCr) but haven't flown in France before. Nearest airfield is Quiberon LFEQ but no idea on it's facilities.
Can anyone help, offer any (helpful) suggestions?
thanks.
Am happy to cover costs, share flying etc. (I have an IMCr) but haven't flown in France before. Nearest airfield is Quiberon LFEQ but no idea on it's facilities.
Can anyone help, offer any (helpful) suggestions?
thanks.
Joined: Sep 2002
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From: Savannah GA & Portsmouth UK
One helpful suggestion would be not to post something on here that is advertising a desire to break the law.
Go off and have a read of Art 267 of the ANO vis a vis the cost sharing rules. Of course it may be that you are seeking to get in touch with an AOC operator who will operate on a charter basis for you in which case I beg your forgiveness.
CAP 393: Air Navigation: The Order and the Regulations | Publications | CAA
A better bet might be to make the acquaintance of Pierre Sellier at Quiberon pierre.sellier.aero(at)wanadoo.fr who might be able to tell you what the chances are of getting one of the Quiberon Air Club aircraft with an instructor to make the flight more legal and also cheaper (only one return flight instead of two).
Quiberon is non-customs so you would need to clear at somewhere like Calais or Dinard. It's a nice trip and Quiberon is very pleasant.
You'll recognise Pierre because he'll be on his Solex
This is the view from the Tower
Go off and have a read of Art 267 of the ANO vis a vis the cost sharing rules. Of course it may be that you are seeking to get in touch with an AOC operator who will operate on a charter basis for you in which case I beg your forgiveness.
CAP 393: Air Navigation: The Order and the Regulations | Publications | CAA
A better bet might be to make the acquaintance of Pierre Sellier at Quiberon pierre.sellier.aero(at)wanadoo.fr who might be able to tell you what the chances are of getting one of the Quiberon Air Club aircraft with an instructor to make the flight more legal and also cheaper (only one return flight instead of two).
Quiberon is non-customs so you would need to clear at somewhere like Calais or Dinard. It's a nice trip and Quiberon is very pleasant.
You'll recognise Pierre because he'll be on his Solex
This is the view from the Tower
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 13,787
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From: EuroGA.org
Without wishing to express a view on the original post 
I think Mike's concern was that according to the ANO one cannot do PPL Cost Sharing if the flight is advertised, unless it is advertised within a flying club and all cost-contributing passengers are members of the club.
For a reference, search caa.co.uk for "summary of public transport"; it is a PDF which explains the cost sharing system fairly well.
What has never been tested in the courts is whether a website, whose readers have to join to participate, can constitute a suitable club. I bet you anything that the CAA would not want to test this one.
Anyway, AFAIK there have never been any prosecutions in this area. The only prosecutions have been in really obvious illegal charter cases, where the flight was witnessed by an AOC holder who complained to the CAA
This is why, if I was hanging around an airport, and some people walked up to me and asked me if I would take them to XYZ, I would refuse because one can bet they have already been around the local AOC holder(s) and didn't like their quotes And if the AOC holder then sees them depart with a PPL pilot, he will file a report to the CAA.
I think Mike's concern was that according to the ANO one cannot do PPL Cost Sharing if the flight is advertised, unless it is advertised within a flying club and all cost-contributing passengers are members of the club.For a reference, search caa.co.uk for "summary of public transport"; it is a PDF which explains the cost sharing system fairly well.
What has never been tested in the courts is whether a website, whose readers have to join to participate, can constitute a suitable club. I bet you anything that the CAA would not want to test this one.
Anyway, AFAIK there have never been any prosecutions in this area. The only prosecutions have been in really obvious illegal charter cases, where the flight was witnessed by an AOC holder who complained to the CAA
This is why, if I was hanging around an airport, and some people walked up to me and asked me if I would take them to XYZ, I would refuse because one can bet they have already been around the local AOC holder(s) and didn't like their quotes
And if the AOC holder then sees them depart with a PPL pilot, he will file a report to the CAA.
Joined: Sep 2002
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From: Savannah GA & Portsmouth UK
What concerned me was that he said
Covering someone's costs is not the same as sharing costs.
I'm not being heavy handed or censorious, simply concerned that he doesn't invite trouble. The CAA takes an interest in ad-hoc charter masquerading as cost sharing.
CAA Prosecutions info here.
Am happy to cover costs, share flying etc.
I'm not being heavy handed or censorious, simply concerned that he doesn't invite trouble. The CAA takes an interest in ad-hoc charter masquerading as cost sharing.
CAA Prosecutions info here.
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 181
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From: North of the border
Cost sharing
Mike and IO540.
Fair comment.
I suppose his legal option is to rent an a/c and instructor which would be much more expensive than sharing the cost of a flight with someone who is already going to make the same trip but with empty seats.
It's a shame that he can't do the latter.
Fair comment.
I suppose his legal option is to rent an a/c and instructor which would be much more expensive than sharing the cost of a flight with someone who is already going to make the same trip but with empty seats.
It's a shame that he can't do the latter.
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 13,787
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From: EuroGA.org
Renting an a/c and instructor would also be prob99 illegal because 99% of schools don't have an AOC. They can do only what is called a "trial lesson".
OK, we all know there is often a thin line between a trial lesson and a pleasure flight (which needs an AOC) but understandably nobody wants to open this can of worms too far because it would practically shut down PPL training in the UK. But if you presented the flight proposal in the way originally written, it would need an AOC.
The only way to do this is to find somebody with an AOC for charter. And that will be seriously expensive. Some of the rates being bandied about during the "invisible ash" saga were eye watering.
Short of charter (AOC required) there is no way to do this with the aircraft owner recovering his full costs.
Best way is to ask a mate of yours privately
OK, we all know there is often a thin line between a trial lesson and a pleasure flight (which needs an AOC) but understandably nobody wants to open this can of worms too far because it would practically shut down PPL training in the UK. But if you presented the flight proposal in the way originally written, it would need an AOC.
The only way to do this is to find somebody with an AOC for charter. And that will be seriously expensive. Some of the rates being bandied about during the "invisible ash" saga were eye watering.
Short of charter (AOC required) there is no way to do this with the aircraft owner recovering his full costs.
Best way is to ask a mate of yours privately
Joined: Jun 2010
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From: Luxembourg
and then there's the french view of things
3 options :
- have someone fly you there (from the club, or an owner)
- fly yourself with one the club's aircraft
option 1a : it's more or less the same as in UK. Cost sharing... Actually the law states "non commercial", so technically the passenger can share 100% of the flight costs
Obviously, as the pilot is benefitting from flying, then in a trial it could be argued it's like getting paid for the flight.
There is also the fact that the person being unknown to you this can be assimilated as pax air transport for which club and pilot should hold some kind of AT license.
So barely legal
Or you can be flown there with an FI. If you do that without paying membership you'll have to pay VAT (according to their website).
option 2 : you'd need to pay membership to the club and then a flight with FI to be authorised on the aircraft
drawbacks :
- 2008 membership was 175 EUR
- if you don't fly the aircrafts they have it can take a few hours to be authorised
- you have to speak french... (which means LPR 1.028 French)
3 options :
- have someone fly you there (from the club, or an owner)
- fly yourself with one the club's aircraft
option 1a : it's more or less the same as in UK. Cost sharing... Actually the law states "non commercial", so technically the passenger can share 100% of the flight costs
Obviously, as the pilot is benefitting from flying, then in a trial it could be argued it's like getting paid for the flight.
There is also the fact that the person being unknown to you this can be assimilated as pax air transport for which club and pilot should hold some kind of AT license.
So barely legal
Or you can be flown there with an FI. If you do that without paying membership you'll have to pay VAT (according to their website).
option 2 : you'd need to pay membership to the club and then a flight with FI to be authorised on the aircraft
drawbacks :
- 2008 membership was 175 EUR
- if you don't fly the aircrafts they have it can take a few hours to be authorised
- you have to speak french... (which means LPR 1.028 French)
