No. of Landings during PPL training
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Location: Chesham, EGTB Booker
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I think I have done about 10 PFL sofar. Everynow and than my instructor kills the power unexpectitly. Obvisouly I think this great and keep current in it on the other hand I see my money training away . I really do wantt to finish now and practice on my own
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PFL - Lots 
We spent a couple of lessons practicing them, but like Screetch after that my instructor would often close the throttle and announce an engine failure unexpectedly, usually when I was tasked up doing something else, or when it would be difficult to select a landing site. I think this is a great way to make a PFL more realistic, and I often find myself playing the "Engine Failure Game" when flying solo now - thinking "if the engine failed now, where would I choose to land?".
EFATO - Around 10, and probably half of those when performing a go-around from a PFL.
I've since completed differences training on an SA Bulldog, and undertook some more PFL practice as part of the conversion. Without power, the Bulldog descends at over twice the rate of the Tomahawk I learned in, so it really gets you thinking decisively
Joel.
We spent a couple of lessons practicing them, but like Screetch after that my instructor would often close the throttle and announce an engine failure unexpectedly, usually when I was tasked up doing something else, or when it would be difficult to select a landing site. I think this is a great way to make a PFL more realistic, and I often find myself playing the "Engine Failure Game" when flying solo now - thinking "if the engine failed now, where would I choose to land?".EFATO - Around 10, and probably half of those when performing a go-around from a PFL.
I've since completed differences training on an SA Bulldog, and undertook some more PFL practice as part of the conversion. Without power, the Bulldog descends at over twice the rate of the Tomahawk I learned in, so it really gets you thinking decisively
Joel.
PFL - Lots We spent a couple of lessons practicing them, but like Screetch after that my instructor would often close the throttle and announce an engine failure unexpectedly, usually when I was tasked up doing something else, or when it would be difficult to select a landing site. I think this is a great way to make a PFL more realistic, and I often find myself playing the "Engine Failure Game" when flying solo now - thinking "if the engine failed now, where would I choose to land?".
EFATO - Around 10, and probably half of those when performing a go-around from a PFL.
I've since completed differences training on an SA Bulldog, and undertook some more PFL practice as part of the conversion. Without power, the Bulldog descends at over twice the rate of the Tomahawk I learned in, so it really gets you thinking decisively
Joel.
We spent a couple of lessons practicing them, but like Screetch after that my instructor would often close the throttle and announce an engine failure unexpectedly, usually when I was tasked up doing something else, or when it would be difficult to select a landing site. I think this is a great way to make a PFL more realistic, and I often find myself playing the "Engine Failure Game" when flying solo now - thinking "if the engine failed now, where would I choose to land?".EFATO - Around 10, and probably half of those when performing a go-around from a PFL.
I've since completed differences training on an SA Bulldog, and undertook some more PFL practice as part of the conversion. Without power, the Bulldog descends at over twice the rate of the Tomahawk I learned in, so it really gets you thinking decisively
Joel.
Just curious. How much time did your instructor talk about using pilot decision making skills to avoid having the engine fail in the first place, dealing with partial engine failures (the most common kind), and techniques to get the engine going again if it did fail ?
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hmm thinking about it we had a few chats about to do and watch to watch out for. otherwise its really only the books and the manuals of restarting and what to check etc..
the thing is you can probably do your ppl in 100hrs and still not get taught everything you should know.. I mean it takes x100 hrs for an ATPL... and I am sure even those dont know everything..
the thing is you can probably do your ppl in 100hrs and still not get taught everything you should know.. I mean it takes x100 hrs for an ATPL... and I am sure even those dont know everything..
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Interesting question BPF,
We covered fuel regular FREDA checks (monitoring fuel and engine state), keeping carb heat on during the check, and keeping a record of when changing fuel tanks. In the event of a partial failure (or dangerous Ts and Ps), I was told to transmit a PAN and make a precautionary landing as soon as safely possible.
With respect to engine restart, I was taught (height permitting) after picking a landing site and setting up for the glide to set carb heat and fuel booster pump on, then work through the following items...
Check Ts and Ps
Check fuel selector and change tanks if required
Exercise mixture then fully rich
Exercise throttle
Check magnetos
Check master switch
However, I was taught to always assume these steps would fail! Is this usual for PPL training? I'm very aware that a PFL is exactly that - a practice. I did quite alot of armchair flying during my PPL to ensure that I could perform all of the procedures automatically. I still don't know what a real engine failure would be like, nor whether I'd be able to handle it. But I figure if I can do all of the stuff I know needs doing quickly, I'll have more time to concentrate on the stuff I don't
Joel.
We covered fuel regular FREDA checks (monitoring fuel and engine state), keeping carb heat on during the check, and keeping a record of when changing fuel tanks. In the event of a partial failure (or dangerous Ts and Ps), I was told to transmit a PAN and make a precautionary landing as soon as safely possible.
With respect to engine restart, I was taught (height permitting) after picking a landing site and setting up for the glide to set carb heat and fuel booster pump on, then work through the following items...
Check Ts and Ps
Check fuel selector and change tanks if required
Exercise mixture then fully rich
Exercise throttle
Check magnetos
Check master switch
However, I was taught to always assume these steps would fail! Is this usual for PPL training? I'm very aware that a PFL is exactly that - a practice. I did quite alot of armchair flying during my PPL to ensure that I could perform all of the procedures automatically. I still don't know what a real engine failure would be like, nor whether I'd be able to handle it. But I figure if I can do all of the stuff I know needs doing quickly, I'll have more time to concentrate on the stuff I don't
Joel.
Last edited by joelgarabedian; 18th May 2010 at 15:57.
I raised the point because how flying schools teach the engine failure/forced approach exercise is a bit of a personal pet peeve of mine. It is all about flying the forced approach manoever with usually very little on how to avoid the need to do a forced approach in the first place.
Looking at the accident statistics if you see a light aircraft sitting in a field with a dead engine the least likely cause would be if that aircraft had a properly maintained engine which had a normal run up, made full static RPM on takeoff, had lots of fuel with the fuel selector correctly positioned, showed normal cruise T & P's, and had no symptoms of carb ice.....suddenly completely stopped.
In fact the accidents stats show that at least 80% of all engine failures are directly caused by the actions or inactions of the pilot, with running out of fuel and allowing a fatal build up of carb ice the leading causes.
Even for engine failures caused by internal mechanical failure, in most cases the engine gave some prior warning with an abnormal runup, failure to deliver full power on takeoff, and/or abnormal engine gauge indications in flight.
When I teach the forced appraoch exercise I start with a lenghly discussion about the above factors and how to get a stopped engine running again. When we get to the actual procedures to fly the forced appraoch manoever I emphasize I am teaching this to pass the fligh test and as a real world exrecise to save their sorry ass after they were stupid enough to let the engine fail in the first place.
Rant over ..... sorry for the thread drift.
Looking at the accident statistics if you see a light aircraft sitting in a field with a dead engine the least likely cause would be if that aircraft had a properly maintained engine which had a normal run up, made full static RPM on takeoff, had lots of fuel with the fuel selector correctly positioned, showed normal cruise T & P's, and had no symptoms of carb ice.....suddenly completely stopped.
In fact the accidents stats show that at least 80% of all engine failures are directly caused by the actions or inactions of the pilot, with running out of fuel and allowing a fatal build up of carb ice the leading causes.
Even for engine failures caused by internal mechanical failure, in most cases the engine gave some prior warning with an abnormal runup, failure to deliver full power on takeoff, and/or abnormal engine gauge indications in flight.
When I teach the forced appraoch exercise I start with a lenghly discussion about the above factors and how to get a stopped engine running again. When we get to the actual procedures to fly the forced appraoch manoever I emphasize I am teaching this to pass the fligh test and as a real world exrecise to save their sorry ass after they were stupid enough to let the engine fail in the first place.
Rant over ..... sorry for the thread drift.
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Thanks for the input guys/girls. yeah I fly from Blackpool so each landing is roughly £10.00. I was just curious to roughly know how much extra I will be spending doing touch and gos, but I guess it is all good practice, just hope my instructer doesnt make me fly around the circuit for the sake of it. I am estimating an extra £1000 in landing fees over the course of the PPL then.
Sorry guys I can't resists. As an instructor I once sat through 58 touch and go's .....in one day......before lunch 
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Circuit bashing is pretty much the best exercise in aviation. Ten pounds a go is a bit strong though.Ask if your school can arrange a transit to somewhere cheaper to get a package of landings,and a change of scene! This is a frequent arrangement at other "rip -off"airfields. Training at a big airport is always a pain.Good luck and enjoy the experience.
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Ask if your school can arrange a transit to somewhere cheaper to get a package of landings,and a change of scene!
And you need to consider that the transit itself is not free either. If you do a 20 minute/50 pound transit to save 5 pounds per T&G, you've got to do 10 T&Gs to make it worthwhile.
