Confirm your position
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Confirm your position
Radar contoller (to which I am recieving basic service and squaking mode C) -"G-XX can you just confirm your position for me"
Is this just a polite way of asking "Are you lost? are you aware that you're close to the boundary of my controlled airspace?"
Is this just a polite way of asking "Are you lost? are you aware that you're close to the boundary of my controlled airspace?"
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Probably not.
If you are on a 7000 squawk, he may genuinely not know which "7000" (of many) is you.
He may have a reason for concern though, otherwise he would not ask. Maybe he has a "7000" close to CAS somewhere.
A smarter way would be to ask you to squawk ident. I am not sure however if that is ever used with a 7000 squawk.
If you were on an individual squawk then he would not be asking the Q. He might ask you to confirm your altitude....
If you are on a 7000 squawk, he may genuinely not know which "7000" (of many) is you.
He may have a reason for concern though, otherwise he would not ask. Maybe he has a "7000" close to CAS somewhere.
A smarter way would be to ask you to squawk ident. I am not sure however if that is ever used with a 7000 squawk.
If you were on an individual squawk then he would not be asking the Q. He might ask you to confirm your altitude....
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Maybe he meant to say confirm alt?
Ahh, IO beat me to it.
Question...did you know where you were?
Ahh, IO beat me to it.
Question...did you know where you were?
Last edited by BigHitDH; 14th May 2010 at 21:02. Reason: IO beat me to it
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Question...did you know where you were? 
Squak was a common traffic frequency for the zone. Controller seemed happy enough when I read back my position and stated my intentions. I guess he was just a bit worried then!
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UK civil controllers can't use squawk ident to identify a 7000 and I suspect a lot wouldn't use it for any of the other non-discrete codes. You can be identified over a VRP at or below 3000 feet though, so it might have been that if you were near one but there are many other possibilities too.
Luvverley!
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Even talking to a radar unit, if you are requesting a Basic Service, the ATCO is not obliged to positively identify you on radar.
Based on DF traces (if available) and/or your intended routeing, it's a legitimate question.
Never assume that if you are in two-way with a radar unit you have been positively identified unless you have been asked to "squawk ident", do at least a thirty degree turn "for identification", or been handed over from your previous frequency.
To the OP, it may just be that the ATCO was anticipating a potential conflict with an a/c under a radar service, and just wanted to confirm who you were, and what your intentions were. Nothing more.
Based on DF traces (if available) and/or your intended routeing, it's a legitimate question.
Never assume that if you are in two-way with a radar unit you have been positively identified unless you have been asked to "squawk ident", do at least a thirty degree turn "for identification", or been handed over from your previous frequency.
To the OP, it may just be that the ATCO was anticipating a potential conflict with an a/c under a radar service, and just wanted to confirm who you were, and what your intentions were. Nothing more.
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UK civil controllers can't use squawk ident to identify a 7000 and I suspect a lot wouldn't use it for any of the other non-discrete codes. You can be identified over a VRP at or below 3000 feet though, so it might have been that if you were near one but there are many other possibilities too.
Im not criticising the ATCO here btw, I was just looking for someone more informed than myself to explain the limitations that radar controllers have in identifying aircraft.
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Never assume that if you are in two-way with a radar unit you have been positively identified unless you have been asked to "squawk ident", do at least a thirty degree turn "for identification", or been handed over from your previous frequency.
It is in the UK where they either don't know or are not allowed to let it be known (one cannot tell which it is) - presumably because an ATCO who is not radar qualified (and paid the higher salary) is not allowed to let it on that he can see you.
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Another possibility not yet mentioned is that your sqk is not appearing on his/her screen. This may be due to low altitude and being some distance from the radar head, hills blocking the radar or your squawk appearing amongst a bunch of others. Asking you to say again your position means that he/she knows where to look a little harder to try and find you.
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UK civil controllers can't use squawk ident to identify a 7000
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Maybe to prevent two controllers 'scottish or London'
doing the same thing at the same time & mixing what they see on the screen up.
Just a guess tho
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Maybe to prevent two controllers 'scottish or London'
doing the same thing at the same time & mixing what they see on the screen up.
Just a guess tho
If you're not going straight A to B, ATC can get puzzled. I came out of the glens, climbed and called a very busy Scottish to report "Over Crinan, Inverness to Oban, heading towards Jura, estimating Oban in 40 minutes." Scottish offered a basic service. Shortly after, when not so busy, Scottish asked me to confirm position, then destination, then departure point.
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Maybe to prevent two controllers 'scottish or London' doing the same thing at the same time & mixing what they see on the screen up.
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Why not?
Identification using PSR
One of the following methods is to be employed when PSR is used to identify aircraft. Direction finding equipment should be used to assist the identification provided it has
been approved for such use.
The Turn Method
An aircraft may be identified by ascertaining its heading and, following a period of track observation, correlating the observed movement of a particular Position Indication with:
• the acknowledged execution of an instruction to alter heading by at least 30°;
• one or more changes of heading of at least 30°‚ as instructed by another controller;
• one or more changes of heading of at least 30° reported by the pilot.
A turn for identification does not constitute the provision of a surveillance service. However, controllers should take into consideration, terrain, other surveillance
returns, PSR coverage and the RoA before instructing an aircraft to alter heading.
In using the turn method the controller shall:
• verify that the movements of not more than one Position Indication correspond with those of the aircraft;
• exercise caution particularly when employing this method in areas where changes of aircraft heading are commonly made as a navigational routine.
Departing Aircraft Method
By observing and correlating the Position Indication of a departing aircraft to a known airborne time. Identification is to be achieved within one mile of the end of the runway
unless otherwise authorised by the CAA.
Particular care should be taken to avoid confusion with aircraft overflying the aerodrome, making a missed approach, departing from an adjacent runway or holding
overhead the aerodrome.
Position Report Method
By correlating a particular Position Indication with a report from the pilot that the aircraft is:
a) over an exact reporting point which is displayed on the situation display; or
b) at a particular distance not exceeding 30 miles on a particular radial from a colocated VOR/DME or TACAN (DME). The source facility must be displayed on the situation display; or
c) over a notified visual reference point or prominent geographical feature, in either case approved for the purpose and displayed on the situation display, provided that the flight is operating with visual reference to the surface and at a height of 3000 ft or less above the surface.
The identification must follow a period of track observation sufficient to enable the controller to compare the movement of the Position Indication with the pilot’s reported route. The reported position and level of the aircraft must indicate that it is
within known PSR cover.
This method must be reinforced by an alternative method if there is any doubt about the identification because of:
• the close proximity of other returns; or
• inaccurate reporting from aircraft at high level or some distance from navigational facilities.
A pilot is to be informed as soon as his aircraft has been identified. When operating inside controlled airspace, the pilot of an aircraft need only be so informed if the identification is achieved by the turn method.
SSR – Mode A Identification
When using Mode A to identify aircraft, one of the following methods is to
be employed:
a) Observing the pilot’s compliance with the instruction to select a discrete four digit code;
b) Recognising a validated four digit code previously assigned to an aircraft callsign. When code/callsign conversion procedures are in use and the code/callsign pairing can be confirmed, the callsign displayed in the data block may be used to establish and maintain identity;
c) Observing an IDENT feature when it has been requested. Caution must be exercised when employing this method because simultaneous requests for SPI transmissions within the same area may result in misidentification. Aircraft displaying the conspicuity code 7000 are not to be identified by this method.
One of the following methods is to be employed when PSR is used to identify aircraft. Direction finding equipment should be used to assist the identification provided it has
been approved for such use.
The Turn Method
An aircraft may be identified by ascertaining its heading and, following a period of track observation, correlating the observed movement of a particular Position Indication with:
• the acknowledged execution of an instruction to alter heading by at least 30°;
• one or more changes of heading of at least 30°‚ as instructed by another controller;
• one or more changes of heading of at least 30° reported by the pilot.
A turn for identification does not constitute the provision of a surveillance service. However, controllers should take into consideration, terrain, other surveillance
returns, PSR coverage and the RoA before instructing an aircraft to alter heading.
In using the turn method the controller shall:
• verify that the movements of not more than one Position Indication correspond with those of the aircraft;
• exercise caution particularly when employing this method in areas where changes of aircraft heading are commonly made as a navigational routine.
Departing Aircraft Method
By observing and correlating the Position Indication of a departing aircraft to a known airborne time. Identification is to be achieved within one mile of the end of the runway
unless otherwise authorised by the CAA.
Particular care should be taken to avoid confusion with aircraft overflying the aerodrome, making a missed approach, departing from an adjacent runway or holding
overhead the aerodrome.
Position Report Method
By correlating a particular Position Indication with a report from the pilot that the aircraft is:
a) over an exact reporting point which is displayed on the situation display; or
b) at a particular distance not exceeding 30 miles on a particular radial from a colocated VOR/DME or TACAN (DME). The source facility must be displayed on the situation display; or
c) over a notified visual reference point or prominent geographical feature, in either case approved for the purpose and displayed on the situation display, provided that the flight is operating with visual reference to the surface and at a height of 3000 ft or less above the surface.
The identification must follow a period of track observation sufficient to enable the controller to compare the movement of the Position Indication with the pilot’s reported route. The reported position and level of the aircraft must indicate that it is
within known PSR cover.
This method must be reinforced by an alternative method if there is any doubt about the identification because of:
• the close proximity of other returns; or
• inaccurate reporting from aircraft at high level or some distance from navigational facilities.
A pilot is to be informed as soon as his aircraft has been identified. When operating inside controlled airspace, the pilot of an aircraft need only be so informed if the identification is achieved by the turn method.
SSR – Mode A Identification
When using Mode A to identify aircraft, one of the following methods is to
be employed:
a) Observing the pilot’s compliance with the instruction to select a discrete four digit code;
b) Recognising a validated four digit code previously assigned to an aircraft callsign. When code/callsign conversion procedures are in use and the code/callsign pairing can be confirmed, the callsign displayed in the data block may be used to establish and maintain identity;
c) Observing an IDENT feature when it has been requested. Caution must be exercised when employing this method because simultaneous requests for SPI transmissions within the same area may result in misidentification. Aircraft displaying the conspicuity code 7000 are not to be identified by this method.
