Another logging hours question - permit to fly a/c

[iburnthings]

I'm sure this has come up before but I have searched and can't find a simple answer so here goes...

I'm a PPL with about 70 hours. I did an hour in a friends L4 Cub today, he said I can log the time if I want. But can I log this flight time in my book?

I have no previous tailwheel experience before today. This was my first taste of the Cubby.


Do I need a tailwheel sign off first? Do I need to own the plane/be insured on it?

Can I log this flight?

These matters always seem complicated with no clear answers.

[CRX]

When you say you 'did' an hour in the Cub, I think you mean you flew for an hour with your friend in the Cub, is this right?
If so, I understand that he will therefore be P1, and he logs the time.
I presume that he didnt let you take it up solo without previous tailwheel time (insurers aren't keen on that sort of thing!)
Tailwheel training requires mandatory 'differences' training, and this must be conducted by an FI or CRI. There is no prescriptive syllabus for this, but most flying training organisations will have there own, and typically they sell courses of five hours.
I am sure others will add info to my reply, and perhaps correct me on some things, but as I see it the hour is not yours to log.
I'm sure you enjoyed it though!

[robin]

If you were to have a tailwheel rating, then you could book the hour.

However, because you aren't rated on the Cub type, you are only a passenger. You could still record the flight in your logbook, but can't record the hours.

[iburnthings]

So, if I get tailwheel 'differences' training signed off, I can fly with him in the Cub and log the time? You don't have to own the aircraft or be insured on it?

[BillieBob]

If you were to have a tailwheel rating, then you could book the hour.

Not quite. Apart from the fact that there is no such thing as a 'tailwheel rating', in order to claim any flight time on a single pilot aeroplane, you must be either PIC or P/UT. Since it appears that you have not completed the required differences training for a tailwheel aeroplane, you cannot claim PIC and, unless your friend holds an FI rating and was instructing you at the time, you cannot claim P/UT. Despite what some (including certain elements of the CAA) would have you believe, the privileges of a JAA CRI rating do not extend to differences training. According to Schedule 7 of the ANO, "A class rating instructor rating (single-pilot aeroplane) entitles the holder to instruct licence holders for the issue of a type or class rating for single-pilot aeroplanes."No more and no less.

[Dan Dare]

or if (s)he is an instructor you can log the hour p(ut)

[robin]

Quite right - I was using it as shorthand. I should have said that your logbook should be countersigned as having completed the difference training

[Piper19]

I think you need the taildragger endorsement. Same with aerobatics on a A152 Aerobat. You can fly that Cessna as PPL, but to do aerobatics you have to have an endorsement (and the plane must be released to do aerobatics).

But what in case you buy your own taildragger airplane within your PPL rating, and it's a single seater. So you cannot get an instructor with you. Or a rare airplane on which there are no instructors left- let's say you restored a Fieseler Storch. Does any taildragger training permit you to fly that Storch as PIC or is it type related?

[BackPacker]

Same with aerobatics on a A152 Aerobat. You can fly that Cessna as PPL, but to do aerobatics you have to have an endorsement (and the plane must be released to do aerobatics).

Can you provide a reference for this, and detail in which jurisdiction this applies?

As far as I know, in FAA- and JAA-land there is no legal requirement whatsoever to have aerobatics differences training. Sure, clubs and insurers may have their requirements (and rightfully so), but the lawmaker does not.

In contrast, a "conventional" (aka tailwheel) aircraft does require differences training by law.

But what in case you buy your own taildragger airplane within your PPL rating, and it's a single seater. So you cannot get an instructor with you. Or a rare airplane on which there are no instructors left- let's say you restored a Fieseler Storch. Does any taildragger training permit you to fly that Storch as PIC or is it type related?

As far as the law is concerned, once you have had your taildragger differences training signed off, you're good to go in any taildragger (that falls within your class rating privileges, eg. SEP).

But jumping into a challenging single seater might not be a good idea after just a few hours on an easy taildragger type. Most clubs/owners/owner associations will have some sort of example syllabus where you need to do a few hours on a type that closely matches the single-seater type, before they set you loose. And your first flight should be in very benign conditions, obviously, until you build some experience.

[Genghis the Engineer]

No such thing as an aerobatic endorsement in JAAland yet, although it might be coming. But even then, you'd be flying PiC legally, so would still Log PiC, even if you might subsequently get in trouble for flying aeros without an endorsement.

In our man's Cub - you need differences training for tailwheel signed off in your logbook. After that, it's perfectly legit to fly his aircraft and log PiC, so long as he doesn't.

If your friend is an instructor, you can log PuI whilst he can log PiC until you have this endorsement, but since it's a permit aircraft, only if your friend wasn't paid to instruct you, which presumably he wasn't. (Strangenesses of UK PtF regulations!).

G

[hatzflyer]

You don't have to own it. You do have to be insured or it would be an illegal flight. You can't log an illegal flight.
Once you have a tailwheel sign off you are free to fly a spitfire if you can find some one daft enough to lend you one and insure you.
However although that may be legal it would certainly be a foolish thing to do.

[iburnthings]

ok.

So I could do differences training on the Cub as long as I'm not paying or 'hiring' the Cub? Do it with an FI and I'm insured on it of course...

[S-Works]

Despite what some (including certain elements of the CAA) would have you believe, the privileges of a JAA CRI rating do not extend to differences training. According to Schedule 7 of the ANO, "A class rating instructor rating (single-pilot aeroplane) entitles the holder to instruct licence holders for the issue of a type or class rating for single-pilot aeroplanes."No more and no less.

I followed this up after our last discussion on this and have in writing from flight crew policy that a CRI can indeed teach for all differences training and is not restricted as you suggest. That is your interpretation and the Official policy is fortunately different.

The majority of LAA coaches are also CRI's with the remainder of us being FI's and Examiners.

[hatzflyer]

Why not join the LAA ( the L4 is a LAA type) and then use a LAA coach for the conversion ? This would also open your eyes to what is available.

[Them thar hills]

LAA Coaching

Not a minor point, the LAA PCS requires that the "trainee" be a whole or part owner of subject aircraft.
tth