Advice Pls: Syndicate Woes
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Appreciated
This is really good stuff, thanks all. I am going to give the above points some serious thought, and some very useful points there. The comments will certainly be influencing my actions, so many thanks for taking the time to input so far !
It is clear that there needs to be some big changes very soon. The lack of financial admin is just not on when you're dealing with significant amounts of other people's hard earned cash. Moving to a group account which is not a personal account of one member will be a good start.
The minimums are in place (insurance, maintenance etc). I've checked.
I look forward to reading more posts - this is really helpful.
It is clear that there needs to be some big changes very soon. The lack of financial admin is just not on when you're dealing with significant amounts of other people's hard earned cash. Moving to a group account which is not a personal account of one member will be a good start.
The minimums are in place (insurance, maintenance etc). I've checked.
I look forward to reading more posts - this is really helpful.
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1. On meeting the potential new member, it's the good old gut instinct first and foremost. Do you feel comfortable letting that person fly YOUR aeroplane? Could you envisage sharing a cramped cockpit with them for a couple of hours?
2. How experienced are they? Is the experience relevant? Do they seem willing to undergo trips with an instructor if the group feel they would require it? (in our group insufficient attention has been given to this aspect IMHO).
3. What is their general attitude/approach to flying? What is their attitude to risk?
4. What kind of flying do they intend to use the aeroplane for? Long, frequent trips away may be a problem.
5. Finally, and this should come out when you put them on the insurance (unless they lie), have they had a prang? If so you need to hear the story..
Hope that helps.
Last edited by XX621; 28th Mar 2010 at 20:09.
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The people are what really matters. No amount of contracts can get around that.
The members need to be compatible in
- mission profile (if a group is some-VFR and some-IFR, it will fall apart when some avionics packs up and the VFR ones don't want to pay for fixing it)
- funding (a stingy member will not want to pay his share)
- flying frequency (there is no way to structure the /month and /flying-hour figures so there is never a cross-subsidy from frequent flyers to infrequent flyers, or vice versa, so if there is a big disparity in patterns, resentment will result)
One also needs clear rules on things like duty drawback, otherwise you will get 1 or 2 members always flying over to LTQ and pocketing the drawback. The drawbacks should go back to the group fund, but that is not perfect accounting either...
The members need to be compatible in
- mission profile (if a group is some-VFR and some-IFR, it will fall apart when some avionics packs up and the VFR ones don't want to pay for fixing it)
- funding (a stingy member will not want to pay his share)
- flying frequency (there is no way to structure the /month and /flying-hour figures so there is never a cross-subsidy from frequent flyers to infrequent flyers, or vice versa, so if there is a big disparity in patterns, resentment will result)
One also needs clear rules on things like duty drawback, otherwise you will get 1 or 2 members always flying over to LTQ and pocketing the drawback. The drawbacks should go back to the group fund, but that is not perfect accounting either...
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(and to quote from that very special episode...)
"Captain Blackadder: Unfortunately most of the infantry think you're a prat. Ask them who they'd rather meet, Squadron Commander Flasheart or the man who cleans out the public toilets in Aberdeen, and they'd go for Wee Jock Poo-Pong McPlop every time. "
As long as you are checked out thoroughly by an instructor known to the group, and perhaps fly with a group member familiar with the specific aeroplane, I don't see a major issue.
Last edited by XX621; 28th Mar 2010 at 21:20.
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It is well worth finding out about their previous flying and then checking up, quietly and informally that it all stacks up and that they have not been banned by ½ the airfields in the area. More than once I have found out things which I did not like…
Rod1
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One also needs clear rules on things like duty drawback, otherwise you will get 1 or 2 members always flying over to LTQ and pocketing the drawback. The drawbacks should go back to the group fund, but that is not perfect accounting either...
If the hourly rate is a "wet" rate and you acquire fuel elsewhere, the group should deduct the cost of that fuel from your bill. And I think the deduction should be based on the fuel cost at the home base, not on the actual purchase price and/or whether or not a duty drawback can be done.
That way you reward individual members if they shop around for fuel (they pocket the difference themselves, after all), but at the same time you're keeping the work for the treasurer easy - all s/he needs to know is the amount of fuel somebody uplifted.
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IO is right and it is people who matter. I have been a treasurer and a secretary in two different groups. In the first, being treasurer was hell as one person in particular would not pay and the group for some reason would not agree DDs or payments in advance. You need a few active people to take on the principal roles: usually as a minimum a good treasurer and someone who can liaise as required on technical issues. I was a member of Lister's group for a while and two such people (and others) made quite a large group run very well. Generally though small is probably better.
You have to make your own judgment. Ask questions, meet as many of the group as possible and don't let heart rule your head because you like the aircraft.
As to the present problem, face to face talking to the treasurer is the way forward. He certainly should not be using his own account for the group's finances. Beyond that, it is difficult to make any constructive comment, not knowing the individuals concerned. Trying to get a few newer, fresher faces in will help, even if that means expanding the group.
You have to make your own judgment. Ask questions, meet as many of the group as possible and don't let heart rule your head because you like the aircraft.
As to the present problem, face to face talking to the treasurer is the way forward. He certainly should not be using his own account for the group's finances. Beyond that, it is difficult to make any constructive comment, not knowing the individuals concerned. Trying to get a few newer, fresher faces in will help, even if that means expanding the group.
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BP... I used to rent out my TB20 and got these various issues.
I used to rent out DRY and (not sure if you know how the UK duty drawback works) it was manifestly unfair to other flyers when one flyer (renter) pocketed the drawback following a 30min flight to LTQ. The drawback paid for his whole trip, but of course that was subsidised by all those flying before him, on any part of the 86USG tank capacity.
The scheme, before I changed it
, created an incentive for somebody to come along once a month and do a very short flight abroad, which cost them approx nothing. (Curiously it was 2 instructors who used to do this irritatingly in-your-face stunt 
).
One alternative is for (this not really applicable to pure rental) the drawback to go into group funds. The particular flyers won't be so happy because they pay the same wet rate as the others (most groups have a WET hourly rate, partly due to lack of fuel flow instrumentation and partly because the members don't fully trust each other to not fiddle it) so ideally they need to be offered a slight discount on that. But that discount is applicable only if the drawback is untainted by previous (and too-recent) foreign flights, otherwise it gets complicated to work out. But if you don't offer any discount on the foreign wet rate, the foreign flyers are subsidising those who don't fly abroad, and since they will generally be the bigger spenders within the group.... you get my drift, nothing is perfect.
I used to rent out DRY and (not sure if you know how the UK duty drawback works) it was manifestly unfair to other flyers when one flyer (renter) pocketed the drawback following a 30min flight to LTQ. The drawback paid for his whole trip, but of course that was subsidised by all those flying before him, on any part of the 86USG tank capacity.
The scheme, before I changed it
, created an incentive for somebody to come along once a month and do a very short flight abroad, which cost them approx nothing. (Curiously it was 2 instructors who used to do this irritatingly in-your-face stunt ).One alternative is for (this not really applicable to pure rental) the drawback to go into group funds. The particular flyers won't be so happy because they pay the same wet rate as the others (most groups have a WET hourly rate, partly due to lack of fuel flow instrumentation and partly because the members don't fully trust each other to not fiddle it) so ideally they need to be offered a slight discount on that. But that discount is applicable only if the drawback is untainted by previous (and too-recent) foreign flights, otherwise it gets complicated to work out. But if you don't offer any discount on the foreign wet rate, the foreign flyers are subsidising those who don't fly abroad, and since they will generally be the bigger spenders within the group.... you get my drift, nothing is perfect.
WRTo new members (from my expereince).
Set a minimum experience level. We had 100hrs P1 minimum in one group - but I think this gave us a discount on insurance. But we were operating from an unlicenced aerodrome with no supervision - so this was relevant.
You have to meet them, get to know them, get aviation related references, and get someone to fly with them. In one of my groups, I was the only professional pilot so I got to fly with prospective members. Not a guarenteed net, but it at least gives you an idea. Once I said I didn't want to take on a new member because of what I saw in the air. I was over-ruled by the group chairman as the new member was a friend of his. The new member subsequently proved me correct by crashing the aircraft!
Watch out for people who keep changing clubs or groups. there's usually a reason for this!
Look at their logbooks and licences carefully. I saw someone's logbook who had a whole batch of hours logged in an aircraft which I knew to be grounded at that time!
Avoid young people with new PPLs - they may be hours building. Not necessarily a bad thing as they are keen, but they will hog the aircraft (unless you have rules preventing this), tend to leave it in a poor state and leave as soon as they get the hours they need.
Set a minimum experience level. We had 100hrs P1 minimum in one group - but I think this gave us a discount on insurance. But we were operating from an unlicenced aerodrome with no supervision - so this was relevant.
You have to meet them, get to know them, get aviation related references, and get someone to fly with them. In one of my groups, I was the only professional pilot so I got to fly with prospective members. Not a guarenteed net, but it at least gives you an idea. Once I said I didn't want to take on a new member because of what I saw in the air. I was over-ruled by the group chairman as the new member was a friend of his. The new member subsequently proved me correct by crashing the aircraft!
Watch out for people who keep changing clubs or groups. there's usually a reason for this!
Look at their logbooks and licences carefully. I saw someone's logbook who had a whole batch of hours logged in an aircraft which I knew to be grounded at that time!
Avoid young people with new PPLs - they may be hours building. Not necessarily a bad thing as they are keen, but they will hog the aircraft (unless you have rules preventing this), tend to leave it in a poor state and leave as soon as they get the hours they need.
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I think syndicates work OK at two levels:
1) a very small one comprising of a few good friends
1) a very small one comprising of a few good friends
However, you'd be amazed at the way good friends can fall out over little matters. The best group of all is a group of one.
I've come round to the view that, if you are in a group, it should be run on company lines with a strong contractual obligation on members, rather than relying on goodwill.
When I acted as group treasurer I found the pressure from members intolerable. They wanted the aircraft properly maintained and in a good state of repair, but I had to chase them constantly for money.
As this was an unpaid, but ultimately, thankless role, I felt badly-used by the other members and eventually gave it up and left the group with a lot of bad feeling.
I hope the XX621's group can get itself back on track, but I sense that it may have got to a point when it should start divorce proceedings.
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.........it should be run on company lines with a strong contractual obligation on members, rather than relying on goodwill.
A group of up to six can make flying a four-seat tourer quite reasonable, cost wise. In fact, the annual cost of a 1/6th share will probably be less than an annual membership at a golf club
Never understood the restriction imposed by some for a 100-hour P1 minimum. Being a good judge of character is more important IMO. A recently qualified pilot should not have any "bad habits" and be keen to learn and be accepted within the group. A few years ago it was a 60-hour member who brought our aeroplane back to the airfield after the engine threw a valve just outside the circuit.
Beware of those who want to have everything in flying on the cheap. They are often those that turn up in a new expensive car, and/or are airline pilots!!
In my experience, a lot of group members do not fly more than 20 hours a year despite what they might say when joining.
The best group of all is a group of one.
WR
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Likely to be the difference in insurance costs!
So I would not rule out low-time pilots on those grounds per se.
Obviously if it's a rather complex type you're going to want a little more experience (in general and on type) than for your average spamcan.
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I was below 100 hrs when I joined our group,the excess if I had an accident would have been £750 instead of the normal £500 and I would have paid that myself.
Lister
Lister
Of our Jodel 1050 group of 6, 4 have been in it for over 12 years. I fly over half the annual hours. (96 in 2009). I joined in January1990, and am not the longest lasting member. We've got one new member who is just completing his NPPL. then he'll do his tailwheel convertion. He's had a few passenger flights in the Jodel. He knows he will have to do/pay whatever the insurance co. demand to fly as P i/c. Usually they require some number of hours to be accompanied by another group member. We've never had a very low hours member before.
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I got a share in a Pup 150 just after passing my PPL. The insurance co wanted me to do a conversion with an instructor and then fly 10 hours with an experienced PPL in the RHS. Having said that I would not let a low hour pilot into a group I was in.
Rod1
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That seems a very selfish attitude.
The new PPL is considered safe to fly,will have done a tailwheel conversion if required ,and been checked out by a member of the group.
When I joined our group I had well below 100 hrs,once I reached 100 the excess insurance loading for me was scrapped.
Lister
The new PPL is considered safe to fly,will have done a tailwheel conversion if required ,and been checked out by a member of the group.
When I joined our group I had well below 100 hrs,once I reached 100 the excess insurance loading for me was scrapped.
Lister
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We set a 100hrs limit on our tailwheel aircraft as it kept the insurance down.
In many ways, I'd quite like a low-hours pilot to join us as we could then get a new member without too many ingrained bad habits.
It is normal for the new member to have to pay any necessary loading on the premium, but that is a matter for the group and can be waived. In any event that would reduce once the 100hrs was reached
In many ways, I'd quite like a low-hours pilot to join us as we could then get a new member without too many ingrained bad habits.
It is normal for the new member to have to pay any necessary loading on the premium, but that is a matter for the group and can be waived. In any event that would reduce once the 100hrs was reached
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We had two low houred pilots join our group a couple of years ago, and have had no issues to date. However we were very selective about them and they flew with the "chief" pilot of the group several times for assessment. As it was they are both good pilots, I often fly with them. There was an insurance stipulation of 10 hrs dual with a group member or FI, and for one of them who was just post PPL with about 50 hrs TT an insurance loading of about £400 which he had to pay. The second year, due to his involvment in the group and the amount he contributed, we covered the excess as a group as he is an asset to the group.
But saying that I had the misfortune to see an aeroplane lose it's nosewheel a couple of weeks ago. The chap came it too high and then dropped like a stone onto the runway. The nosewheel came flying off and the prop struck. Could happen to anyone I suppose but chatting to the engineers who are carrying out the repair (in excess of £20,000 so far), the engine has done just 30 hrs since the same pilot did the same thing.....I guess their aeroplane will be out of service for another 3+ months.
But saying that I had the misfortune to see an aeroplane lose it's nosewheel a couple of weeks ago. The chap came it too high and then dropped like a stone onto the runway. The nosewheel came flying off and the prop struck. Could happen to anyone I suppose but chatting to the engineers who are carrying out the repair (in excess of £20,000 so far), the engine has done just 30 hrs since the same pilot did the same thing.....I guess their aeroplane will be out of service for another 3+ months.