CAA to allow Flight Training from Unlicensed Aerodromes
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Thing is, what is needed depends on what you are doing.
That is what experience around the world has shown - and experience here.
So, for at least 50 years, no UK airfield fire service has been any use at all to save lives of trainee pilots or their instructors!
Microlight schools don't have to have fire services etc etc. You can teach out the boot of your car! (I did teach once out the back of my camper van!)
So get an aircraft and start barnstorming.
Reckon there must be a good bit to be made from airfields like Dornoch with trial flights. A week there, a week at Plockton, a week on Mull, a few days on Bute. Bliss!
It is all possible now.
That is what experience around the world has shown - and experience here.
So, for at least 50 years, no UK airfield fire service has been any use at all to save lives of trainee pilots or their instructors!
Microlight schools don't have to have fire services etc etc. You can teach out the boot of your car! (I did teach once out the back of my camper van!)
So get an aircraft and start barnstorming.
Reckon there must be a good bit to be made from airfields like Dornoch with trial flights. A week there, a week at Plockton, a week on Mull, a few days on Bute. Bliss!
It is all possible now.
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Great thread, is this another sign of the shift from old c 150/2s traumahawks etc to more modern aircraft based at farm strips cutting costs and reigniting the fun of flying at reasonable rates in these hard times.
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So, for at least 50 years, no UK airfield fire service has been any use at all to save lives of trainee pilots or their instructors!
is this another sign of the shift from old c 150/2s traumahawks etc to more modern aircraft based at farm strips cutting costs and reigniting the fun of flying at reasonable rates in these hard times.
Also, while farm strips are a great solution for those who, errrm, are based at one (i.e. can get into the favour of some farmer) it is not a solution for the vast majority who never will be able to. Farm strips are damn hard to find, much harder still to get Planning for (forcing people to pretend they operate 28 days a year - what boll0x - and to watch their back the whole time wrt the locals), and most are tightly knit groups who don't want newcomers. Short of a major change in Planning regs, strip flying will never be accessible to most.
Those who think GA can be killed off and farm strips are the future, are kidding themselves. Sure, strap a lawn mower to your back and you can "operate" anywhere, but it is a dead end hobby.
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Quote:
So, for at least 50 years, no UK airfield fire service has been any use at all to save lives of trainee pilots or their instructors!
According to a CAA/DfT presentation I went to a while ago, there is no record of any life saved in UK GA since records began.
So, for at least 50 years, no UK airfield fire service has been any use at all to save lives of trainee pilots or their instructors!
According to a CAA/DfT presentation I went to a while ago, there is no record of any life saved in UK GA since records began.
Legal minds will probably be considering liability issues in running flight training (which could perhaps be considered inherently risky) with piece-meal emergency support.
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“For many, no doubt, but under current international regs the non-CofA light/sports part of GA is a total dead end as far as going anywhere for real.”
IO this is complete twaddle. You and I both know that the 1980’s international agreement gives very extensive access to Europe for these aircraft without any extra work over a full C of A aircraft. With permit aircraft flying round the world fairly frequently, and a home built plastic fantastic having got into orbit you really do need some new lines.
I take it some farmers son pushed you into a pile of poo in your younger days?
Rod1
IO this is complete twaddle. You and I both know that the 1980’s international agreement gives very extensive access to Europe for these aircraft without any extra work over a full C of A aircraft. With permit aircraft flying round the world fairly frequently, and a home built plastic fantastic having got into orbit you really do need some new lines.
I take it some farmers son pushed you into a pile of poo in your younger days?
Rod1
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IO, I have never read so much bollox in all my life. The lighter end of G A is the ONLY side that is thriving.
Why can't you just accept that not everyone wants to fly commercially?
Recreational flying is on the increase...live with it .
I imagine a poll would prove that there are a much larger percentage of recreational pilots flying foreign trips in permit/lighter aircraft than the heavy stuff that you advocate.
Edited. May I also point out that this forum is entitled " Private Flying"..
( NOT airline wannabies etc )
Why can't you just accept that not everyone wants to fly commercially?
Recreational flying is on the increase...live with it .
I imagine a poll would prove that there are a much larger percentage of recreational pilots flying foreign trips in permit/lighter aircraft than the heavy stuff that you advocate.
Edited. May I also point out that this forum is entitled " Private Flying"..
( NOT airline wannabies etc )
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Gasax
Thanks for the fuel info, that will be useful I'm sure.
I don't deny that this is a step forward. The CAA have admitted that the UK is the only European nation to require a licensed airfield for training (and given some the input of the American, Australian and Canadian contingent, probably most of the world). I am looking forward to being able to use our unlicensed runway, which favours the prevailing winds and will mean far better continuity for all concerned.
However, I think it would be foolish to jump to the conclusion that it is an instant money saver without looking at all of the facts. After all, we are governed by people who have a habit of giving with one hand and taking with the other (cynical, me?
).
On a separate note,
With regard to RFFS/IER and saving life it really depends on how you want to look at it. I would concede that it has been statistically proven that IER has never saved a life in response to an accident. We had an occurrence in recent history in which the responders could do nothing. The injuries were not survivable.
However, in a separate incident IER responded to a hot start in the refuelling area. They dealt with it quickly and no one got hurt in an instance which if allowed, could have gotten rather worse.
Now I'm waiting for the cries of 'anybody could have put that out, it still doesn't mean we need IER'. But in this case, not only did the IER extinguish the fire, they also held back the resident well meaning know it all (actually told him where he could go and what he might do when he got there), who turned up with a water extinguisher.
Now I'm sure that most of us are well aware that water and fuel are immiscible, and that the resulting fire ball from even a small amount of water on a chip pan fire is not good for your health... YouTube - Chip Pan Demonstration
Our well meaning friend was obviously ignorant of this fact or acted entirely on impulse. Either way I wouldn't have liked to have been anywhere near that aircraft had he managed to use that extinguisher.
Thanks for the fuel info, that will be useful I'm sure.
I don't deny that this is a step forward. The CAA have admitted that the UK is the only European nation to require a licensed airfield for training (and given some the input of the American, Australian and Canadian contingent, probably most of the world). I am looking forward to being able to use our unlicensed runway, which favours the prevailing winds and will mean far better continuity for all concerned.
However, I think it would be foolish to jump to the conclusion that it is an instant money saver without looking at all of the facts. After all, we are governed by people who have a habit of giving with one hand and taking with the other (cynical, me?
).On a separate note,
With regard to RFFS/IER and saving life it really depends on how you want to look at it. I would concede that it has been statistically proven that IER has never saved a life in response to an accident. We had an occurrence in recent history in which the responders could do nothing. The injuries were not survivable.
However, in a separate incident IER responded to a hot start in the refuelling area. They dealt with it quickly and no one got hurt in an instance which if allowed, could have gotten rather worse.
Now I'm waiting for the cries of 'anybody could have put that out, it still doesn't mean we need IER'. But in this case, not only did the IER extinguish the fire, they also held back the resident well meaning know it all (actually told him where he could go and what he might do when he got there), who turned up with a water extinguisher.
Now I'm sure that most of us are well aware that water and fuel are immiscible, and that the resulting fire ball from even a small amount of water on a chip pan fire is not good for your health... YouTube - Chip Pan Demonstration
Our well meaning friend was obviously ignorant of this fact or acted entirely on impulse. Either way I wouldn't have liked to have been anywhere near that aircraft had he managed to use that extinguisher.
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I never said I fly commercially. I don't. I am just a private pilot who likes to "go places", VFR or IFR, without having to get permissions from country X,Y,Z. PPR is a big enough hassle already.
Sure one go to Le Touquet in one's homebuilt... but that gets boring after about the 20th visit
Sure one go to Le Touquet in one's homebuilt... but that gets boring after about the 20th visit
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My RV has been further than Le Touquet as have many others, a couple have been right around the world ( don't think I want to go further than that though, even though there have been homebuilts in space).
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I don't have an IR so whats the difference to me if the plane is capable and I am not? I fly because I like to see where I am going... That's the point of recreational flying.
If I HAVE to go I let Ryan air take me.
It seems that makes me a lesser mortal to some on here, but I've managed to enjoy 30+ yrs of flying over 180 types of aircraft.
The point being I enjoy what I do, obviously you wouldn't.... but its horses for courses, I don't see the point in carrying loads of kit that costs a fortune every year if I am not going to use it. But you cannot say that I haven't been anywhere in my aircraft...Clearly I have and what is more I have enjoyed it.
For the record, I have always had a motor bike, but I don't commute to work on it in the snow, I take the car.
If I HAVE to go I let Ryan air take me.
It seems that makes me a lesser mortal to some on here, but I've managed to enjoy 30+ yrs of flying over 180 types of aircraft.
The point being I enjoy what I do, obviously you wouldn't.... but its horses for courses, I don't see the point in carrying loads of kit that costs a fortune every year if I am not going to use it. But you cannot say that I haven't been anywhere in my aircraft...Clearly I have and what is more I have enjoyed it.
For the record, I have always had a motor bike, but I don't commute to work on it in the snow, I take the car.
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It seems that makes me a lesser mortal to some on here
What I am responding to is the assertion that GA as we know it can be relegated to farm strips and still carry on.
It will carry on - until the old guard dies out (literally or figuratively). Or the amount of "28 day" activity in the open countryside reaches a level at which the NIMBYs get their act seriously together.
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This is perhaps true with respect to fires, but IIRC there has been at least one case where a bubble-canopied plane inverted, trapping the occupant(s) who had to be released by other folk.
Legal minds will probably be considering liability issues in running flight training (which could perhaps be considered inherently risky) with piece-meal emergency support.
Legal minds will probably be considering liability issues in running flight training (which could perhaps be considered inherently risky) with piece-meal emergency support.
Here in Canada, in large portion, flight schools are actively discouraged from operating at airports which do have comprehensive CFR. The biggest airports discourage or prohibit flight training. Most students learn at airports which have no CFR at all, the airport safety plan is to call the local fire department (as a volunteer firefighter, we are called to about one per year). We have as many off the airports as on, and I recall only one being in the flight training role, and it was in the lake anyway. It's usually the experienced pilot either goofing around or scud running, who goes bump.
So, why ban flight training at airports which do not have CFR? If it's bubble canopy aircraft which are the concern, ban flight training in them from non CFR airports (sorry bubble guys, I'm not against you, I'm just stirring the pot).
It can be tolerable when well informed regulators, in meaningful consultation with industry and users, make and change regulation. It does seem silly when poorly informed regulators impose restrictions for who knows what reason! The requirement of CFR for flight training certainly falls in this category for me!
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Originally Posted by IO540
For many, no doubt, but under current international regs the non-CofA light/sports part of GA is a total dead end as far as going anywhere for real.
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I wouldn't say I "know it", no.
VFR-only is a dead end for many pilots, myself included, which is why they do the IMCR and some do the IR.
VFR is fine for sightseeing of course, but let's not start yet another long thread on how people do local trips but soon run out of mates to fly with them on the same old sightseeing trip.
One can indeed go places VFR but one needs to be a retired perpetual traveller to get anywhere far. VFR in IMC helps but only to a degree because you have to do it where you won't be seen.
All these groups of pilots, with different objectives, can coexist perfectly well. But like I say, pretending that GA can shrink to sports planes operating from farm strips is a fallacy.
VFR-only is a dead end for many pilots, myself included, which is why they do the IMCR and some do the IR.
VFR is fine for sightseeing of course, but let's not start yet another long thread on how people do local trips but soon run out of mates to fly with them on the same old sightseeing trip.
One can indeed go places VFR but one needs to be a retired perpetual traveller to get anywhere far. VFR in IMC helps but only to a degree because you have to do it where you won't be seen.
All these groups of pilots, with different objectives, can coexist perfectly well. But like I say, pretending that GA can shrink to sports planes operating from farm strips is a fallacy.
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But like I say, pretending that GA can shrink to sports planes operating from farm strips is a fallacy.
is the assertion that GA as we know it can be relegated to farm strips and still carry on.
VFR-only is a dead end for many pilots, myself included, which is why they do the IMCR and some do the IR.
*For the record I intend to expand my horizons as much as possible and this will hopefully include a night rating, IMC rating, IR, taildraggers etc etc.
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IO, ok having had a good nights sleep I now realise you are absolutely correct and I am absolutely wrong.
The last 30 odd years of my flying past has been a complete waste of time because the were all done VMC.
The fact that my amount of flying each year is only restricted by my income and not the weather is a mere inconsequence and the six and a half thousand hours that I have flown vmc is proof that you can't fly without an airways equipped aircraft.
I have owned airways equipped aircraft in the past by the way, Rallye 180, Cessna, Grumman, Piper, Beech, Wassmer and had access to an airways equipped Commander but hey, what would I know about operating any such aircraft, I only ever flew VMC.
By the way, I did notice that I flew less hours in those sorts of aircraft, the costs made me wince and meant that I could only afford less time in the air. Mind you when I did get them out the passengers were well impressed with all the knobs and dials,( I didn't let on that that I didn't know what half of them were for!).
One other draw back I found flying these types was that the handling wasn't really up to scratch compared to the permit types that I was flying at the same time. The Sennaca was definitely sluggish going around a roll.
Your postings have made me re-evaluate my life.
I have now come to realise that my Jodel D9 is a complete waste of space.Talking of space, that is something it severely lacks..no room for any real equipment and no sparks to work them...hell! it hasn't even got a roof! Absolutely no good for IMC then. I'll get rid of it straight away.
As for my motor glider that flies on 1 gal per hour and is a delight on the long summer evenings after work, well I now realise that is a total waste of time as well so I'll give it to the Pikeys for scrap.( It'll save 'em nicking it anyway Plus I won't have to worry about terrorists using it for an attack against Parliament).
The RV is a total delight to fly compared to anything else I have flown, and of course I have come under the same spell as all the other RV owners that have made Vans the most popular home built ever with a range that suits everyone except the serious IMC flyer. I had overlooked this serious defect and can only apologize. I suspect Vans must be using some sort of witchcraft to hoodwink so many people. I will write to the Pope denouncing him as the Devil as soon as I have stopped typing this , said 5 Hail Marys and self flagellated for half an hour.
I am not even going to mention my involvement in a high performance sailplane ( oops ..sorry..just did! ) as I now realize these are the spawn of Beelzebub only invented to cause near air misses with all you head in cockpit types..and as for gliding sights with cables and other works of the Devil....
Thanks for the guidance I.O.and bringing me to my senses ..must go now...Where did I put that whip???
The last 30 odd years of my flying past has been a complete waste of time because the were all done VMC.
The fact that my amount of flying each year is only restricted by my income and not the weather is a mere inconsequence and the six and a half thousand hours that I have flown vmc is proof that you can't fly without an airways equipped aircraft.
I have owned airways equipped aircraft in the past by the way, Rallye 180, Cessna, Grumman, Piper, Beech, Wassmer and had access to an airways equipped Commander but hey, what would I know about operating any such aircraft, I only ever flew VMC.
By the way, I did notice that I flew less hours in those sorts of aircraft, the costs made me wince and meant that I could only afford less time in the air. Mind you when I did get them out the passengers were well impressed with all the knobs and dials,( I didn't let on that that I didn't know what half of them were for!).
One other draw back I found flying these types was that the handling wasn't really up to scratch compared to the permit types that I was flying at the same time. The Sennaca was definitely sluggish going around a roll.
Your postings have made me re-evaluate my life.
I have now come to realise that my Jodel D9 is a complete waste of space.Talking of space, that is something it severely lacks..no room for any real equipment and no sparks to work them...hell! it hasn't even got a roof! Absolutely no good for IMC then. I'll get rid of it straight away.
As for my motor glider that flies on 1 gal per hour and is a delight on the long summer evenings after work, well I now realise that is a total waste of time as well so I'll give it to the Pikeys for scrap.( It'll save 'em nicking it anyway Plus I won't have to worry about terrorists using it for an attack against Parliament).
The RV is a total delight to fly compared to anything else I have flown, and of course I have come under the same spell as all the other RV owners that have made Vans the most popular home built ever with a range that suits everyone except the serious IMC flyer. I had overlooked this serious defect and can only apologize. I suspect Vans must be using some sort of witchcraft to hoodwink so many people. I will write to the Pope denouncing him as the Devil as soon as I have stopped typing this , said 5 Hail Marys and self flagellated for half an hour.
I am not even going to mention my involvement in a high performance sailplane ( oops ..sorry..just did! ) as I now realize these are the spawn of Beelzebub only invented to cause near air misses with all you head in cockpit types..and as for gliding sights with cables and other works of the Devil....
Thanks for the guidance I.O.and bringing me to my senses ..must go now...Where did I put that whip???