who continues to use their whizz wheel?
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Whilst an interesting tangent, the discussion was not about using GPS instead off a Whizzwheel. It was asking who still used it.....
No one is suggesting that people do not flight plan and switch to a GPS. What many people are saying is that the whizz has no place in modern aviation. It is a slide rule that has been surpassed by better, easier to use and more reliable tools.
The biggest errors I see as an Instructor are by people trying to use a whizz wheel when flight planning. There is no need for it. An electronic calculator will do the job faster and more accurately.
No one is suggesting that people do not flight plan and switch to a GPS. What many people are saying is that the whizz has no place in modern aviation. It is a slide rule that has been surpassed by better, easier to use and more reliable tools.
The biggest errors I see as an Instructor are by people trying to use a whizz wheel when flight planning. There is no need for it. An electronic calculator will do the job faster and more accurately.
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Originally Posted by bose-x
It is a slide rule that has been surpassed by better, easier to use and more reliable tools
I don't dispute that you'll probably never get cheaper than the standard scientific calculator, which will adequately serve the purpose if you're happy to apply trigonometric fomulae to calculate headings and ground-speed. I would still rather use the 'wind' side of the whizz-wheel because its all graphical, and doesn't really require measurement of angles or distance using a protractor or rule.
I don't dispute that the ASA CX-Pathfinder isn't as efficient, I'm just in favour of the ASA E6-B which is approximately £50.00 cheaper (Or £65.00 cheaper if you get the cardboard version).
I also wouldn't advocate use of the GPS as a replacement for flight-planning, but only as a back-up. Whilst nice-to-have, at £300.00+ its still an expensive nice-to-have.
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But are these replacement tools neccessarily a cheaper alternative?
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Oh dear.... there is a number of non-pilots here 
Most modern pilots flying from A to B for real don't actually work out the wind triangle at all.
If VFR, what they do is plan the route (using a mixture of navaid/intersection waypoints), enter it into a flight planning prog (Navbox is popular for European VFR and hard to beat for simplicity) and print off the plog, and a little route map. Then use the printed chart for obstacle clearance (MSA) planning. The Navbox route can be loaded directly into a handheld GPS. And off you go.
And this can be done without a laptop, in various ways. An Iphone may be one but it's a damn expensive mobile phone... You can pick up a little PDA for peanuts and run some "E6B" prog on it (I have FlightCalc) which does the wind triangle. But in reality almost everybody going places uses GPS and - like VOR/DME flying - that gives you continuous lateral guidance so there is no need to work out the wind correction. The heading/track offset is obvious within about 30 seconds of levelling off... It is nearly 10 years since I did any wind offset calcs and I've been as far as Turkey. Wind correction on the cruise speed (i.e. range) yes; that is a different thing, but is much easier.
If IFR, airways, you use a routing tool (such as Flight Plan Pro), paste the route into Flitestar (that's one way), print off the strip charts, the plog, print off the plates (from where-ever you get them) and off you go. Oh and get weather of course etc etc
No wind offset calcs there either...
The basic issue is that Form 214 accuracy is such that any accurate computation of the wind offset is no better than some rule of thumb e.g. drift = crosswind/2 or whatever. Garbage in = garbage out. But they don't teach that in the PPL. It's only when you start flying yourself that you realise most of the so-called met data is a lot less accurate than you expected. Like the temperature lapse rate - most of the time it is nowhere near 2C/1000ft. Yesterday it was about half that.
Most modern pilots flying from A to B for real don't actually work out the wind triangle at all.
If VFR, what they do is plan the route (using a mixture of navaid/intersection waypoints), enter it into a flight planning prog (Navbox is popular for European VFR and hard to beat for simplicity) and print off the plog, and a little route map. Then use the printed chart for obstacle clearance (MSA) planning. The Navbox route can be loaded directly into a handheld GPS. And off you go.
And this can be done without a laptop, in various ways. An Iphone may be one but it's a damn expensive mobile phone... You can pick up a little PDA for peanuts and run some "E6B" prog on it (I have FlightCalc) which does the wind triangle. But in reality almost everybody going places uses GPS and - like VOR/DME flying - that gives you continuous lateral guidance so there is no need to work out the wind correction. The heading/track offset is obvious within about 30 seconds of levelling off... It is nearly 10 years since I did any wind offset calcs and I've been as far as Turkey. Wind correction on the cruise speed (i.e. range) yes; that is a different thing, but is much easier.
If IFR, airways, you use a routing tool (such as Flight Plan Pro), paste the route into Flitestar (that's one way), print off the strip charts, the plog, print off the plates (from where-ever you get them) and off you go. Oh and get weather of course etc etc
No wind offset calcs there either...The basic issue is that Form 214 accuracy is such that any accurate computation of the wind offset is no better than some rule of thumb e.g. drift = crosswind/2 or whatever. Garbage in = garbage out. But they don't teach that in the PPL. It's only when you start flying yourself that you realise most of the so-called met data is a lot less accurate than you expected. Like the temperature lapse rate - most of the time it is nowhere near 2C/1000ft. Yesterday it was about half that.
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According to this it should be 3C/1000ft, so fair enough, but that makes my point even more in that one cannot rely on it. A lot of the time it is in fact inverted...
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I'm PPl with 250+hours, IMC.
I still use the whizz wheel and will continue to do so.
It works, keeps your brain in the loop. Doesn't require batteries .
Can't see any reason for not using to be honest.Its very quick to use.
The plane I fly has GPS , I don't have a portable one myself though (feel I'm in the minority there!) but manually calculating things I feel is the best way to go.
For navigation whilst I input a flight plan in the Garman 430, I fly using radio navigtion as the primary method with GPS as a background check. Plus if you can see out and are not in cloud, visual references as well to make sure the 'picture' looks right.
I don't fly using dead reckoning but I do plan using that method so I have times for the flight based upon the wind forecasts for fuel management.
I still use the whizz wheel and will continue to do so.
It works, keeps your brain in the loop. Doesn't require batteries .
Can't see any reason for not using to be honest.Its very quick to use.
The plane I fly has GPS , I don't have a portable one myself though (feel I'm in the minority there!) but manually calculating things I feel is the best way to go.
For navigation whilst I input a flight plan in the Garman 430, I fly using radio navigtion as the primary method with GPS as a background check. Plus if you can see out and are not in cloud, visual references as well to make sure the 'picture' looks right.
I don't fly using dead reckoning but I do plan using that method so I have times for the flight based upon the wind forecasts for fuel management.
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I once was "admonished" by a fellow student for suggesting that to fly from LHR to Truro we should head westish, with "No no, we have to be a little more accurate than that, we should steer 087deg magnetic" as he was playing with his new electronic thingy.
The point I am trying to make is that to learn the basics & do most of it in your head is extremely usefull. Errors can be made on any piece of kit. The square protractor can be rotated 90deg & that set of numbers written down, I've seen it done, & nearly done it myself.
The triangle could be drawn out on the chart with a Nm calibrated rule, just to demonstrate its function. Knowing the basics like reasonably correct direction of track by ref to the chart & being able to point at the target destination, even very roughly, should eliminate gross errors like heading off on a reciprocal. Reliance on anything other than a chart & compass can/will produce an error at some point. Being able to use the CRP1 I think is not a bad thing, to learn the intricacies of setting up a GPS requires the teachings from a 10yr old Nintendo pilot. But when my daughter kept asking "what has time got to do with it?" while I was muttering about deg-mins & seconds, makes me wonder if the 10yr old would be much use. Old fart I may be but I do believe that knowledge don't weigh nothin, & the batteries don't go flat.
The point I am trying to make is that to learn the basics & do most of it in your head is extremely usefull. Errors can be made on any piece of kit. The square protractor can be rotated 90deg & that set of numbers written down, I've seen it done, & nearly done it myself.
The triangle could be drawn out on the chart with a Nm calibrated rule, just to demonstrate its function. Knowing the basics like reasonably correct direction of track by ref to the chart & being able to point at the target destination, even very roughly, should eliminate gross errors like heading off on a reciprocal. Reliance on anything other than a chart & compass can/will produce an error at some point. Being able to use the CRP1 I think is not a bad thing, to learn the intricacies of setting up a GPS requires the teachings from a 10yr old Nintendo pilot. But when my daughter kept asking "what has time got to do with it?" while I was muttering about deg-mins & seconds, makes me wonder if the 10yr old would be much use. Old fart I may be but I do believe that knowledge don't weigh nothin, & the batteries don't go flat.
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I have never seen a microlight pilot use a whizz wheel and they have the same exams, flight planning is possibly more important when one's cruise is even more effected by wind etc.
I have never actually seen a GA pilot use a whizz wheel either, apart from students.
I have never seen anyone take a starsight either.
ps do yachtsmen still regularly use sextants?
I have never actually seen a GA pilot use a whizz wheel either, apart from students.
I have never seen anyone take a starsight either.
ps do yachtsmen still regularly use sextants?
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I don't think anyone will dissuade a die hard whizz wheel supporter to change, and fair enough. It works. Similarly there's no reason to critiscise anyone using a more modern method, such as the various pda/phone tools.
However there is only one thing that people ought to agree on, and that is that hopping into the aircraft, putting a goto on the gps, and then adjusting the heading to fly the magenta line is a high risk strategy that will let you down badly one day.
There's been very little talk here of the 'rules of thumb' methods that rely only on brainpower, and were designed for use on the fly, if you'll pardon the pun. The one I was taught involves calculation of the maximum drift based on the airspeed (TAS/120 times windspeed), and then working out how much of that you're likely to get based on your heading relative to the wind (the clock rule). This particular tool is accurate to within wind forecast and flying ability limits, and clearly has the advantage in that any failure of the processor has much wider consequences than simply navigation !
However there is only one thing that people ought to agree on, and that is that hopping into the aircraft, putting a goto on the gps, and then adjusting the heading to fly the magenta line is a high risk strategy that will let you down badly one day.
There's been very little talk here of the 'rules of thumb' methods that rely only on brainpower, and were designed for use on the fly, if you'll pardon the pun. The one I was taught involves calculation of the maximum drift based on the airspeed (TAS/120 times windspeed), and then working out how much of that you're likely to get based on your heading relative to the wind (the clock rule). This particular tool is accurate to within wind forecast and flying ability limits, and clearly has the advantage in that any failure of the processor has much wider consequences than simply navigation !
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I'm a 27 year new pilot. I am what you might call part of the Sega generation. I like checking my email on the go and recording programmes on my high def TV remotely using my phone, pushing the boundaries of technology and finding new uses for it.
I like using sat nav in a car, I know I can still read a road atlas or A-Z if need be.
I want to use a GPS unit in the aircraft instead of (in my opinion) an ancient piece of plastic that turns and goes up and down.
But I'm sticking with it for now until I am confident I can do it well the old fashioned way and I have done some decent trips. This also ensures it does not come as a big shock come CPL time.
The technology is there to overlay the whole of Europe on a HUD (Head up display) with obstacle and airspace warnings, I expect GA flying might start using this within the next 25 years or so.
I like using sat nav in a car, I know I can still read a road atlas or A-Z if need be.
I want to use a GPS unit in the aircraft instead of (in my opinion) an ancient piece of plastic that turns and goes up and down.
But I'm sticking with it for now until I am confident I can do it well the old fashioned way and I have done some decent trips. This also ensures it does not come as a big shock come CPL time.
The technology is there to overlay the whole of Europe on a HUD (Head up display) with obstacle and airspace warnings, I expect GA flying might start using this within the next 25 years or so.
Oh Shazbat!
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BingoBoy
Not quite, we don't have to use the whizz wheel instead being taught to plot out triangle of velocities for the microlight nav exam.
Personally speaking, I read a few books about flying where the whizz wheel is mentioned for doing really useful snap calculations in the cockpit. You mention the wind calculation & I could have done with that on my GST for example. I don't have a whizz wheel for the reason mentioned above, but have it on my todo list to see if it really is useful as a quick calculator that doesn't need batteries but helps with general flying.
I have never seen a microlight pilot use a whizz wheel and they have the same exams, flight planning is possibly more important when one's cruise is even more effected by wind etc.
Personally speaking, I read a few books about flying where the whizz wheel is mentioned for doing really useful snap calculations in the cockpit. You mention the wind calculation & I could have done with that on my GST for example. I don't have a whizz wheel for the reason mentioned above, but have it on my todo list to see if it really is useful as a quick calculator that doesn't need batteries but helps with general flying.
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There is nothing wrong with using an Abacus if that is your thing.
Personally I'll continue to spend 5 minutes on the internet as I drink my morning coffee and check my email.....I can then get the printer to print out all the papers I need while I brush my teeth and pack my flight bag.
Realistically one cannot do "proper" flight planning without access to the internet for: Notams, weather, winds aloft, freezing level, actual weather conditions, and even booking your aeroplane.
Personally I'll continue to spend 5 minutes on the internet as I drink my morning coffee and check my email.....I can then get the printer to print out all the papers I need while I brush my teeth and pack my flight bag.
Realistically one cannot do "proper" flight planning without access to the internet for: Notams, weather, winds aloft, freezing level, actual weather conditions, and even booking your aeroplane.
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I remember the PPL who was about to take his IMC Rating flight test. He insisted on using an electronic device rather than a navigation computer. His batteries went flat, he didn't have a CP-1 so he failed the test.
I remember a total electrical failure at night in a C172 over the bleak North Yorks moors. No electrics, no battery, no NAVAIDs - just a line on the map and a heading to fly to get me safely down (and a hand-held radio I always carried at night - just to be on the safe side!).
I remember a friend of mine having an engine failure in a C172 - all power lost - he used the lines on the map and the PLOG created using a nav. computer to carry out a (successful and expeditious) straight glide into Sywell.
In all these cases the pilots were situationally aware of where they were.
The problem these days is that, if you're not careful, total reliance is placed on 'technology' and little on common sense.
Provided you use brain first, gadget second then you should be fine. Otherwise sooner or later finger trouble, gadget failure or loss of power might catch you out.
Like most things in aviation they're great when they're working but a nightmare when they don't.
I remember those two chaps who, having flown out for the proverbial 'expensive cup of coffee' had to fly back to base in the murk using GPS. That was great - except they forgot The Wrekin was in the way and flew into the top of it. Great gadget and experienced pilots but with no other flight planning and no situational awareness - game over.
It's not always pilots either who fall foul of electronic gadgets - it was once carrying out a practice PAN with my PPL instructor and the Radar service we were using gave us vectors and an altitude to fly that took us straight into the Winter Hill mast - until the instructor asked (sarcatically) what this 2,500 mast ahead of us was!? Oops!
So at PPL/private flying level at least it's always best to plan carefully assuming something may go wrong with the 'gadget' - and to work out your alternatives if it does.
Trouble is in these days of almost total dependance on all things electronic it's unlikely that much heed will be taken - after all, many of you have said that navigational computers and the like should be relegated to the bin. The logic must therefore be that modern light aircraft are 100% reliable and nothing will fail - ever.
I don't believe that so until this level of reliability is achieved I will continue to use lines on a map and a navigational computer (if required).
I've been caught out already and know others who have too - and some have died as a consequence.
Happy GPSing.
SITW
I remember a total electrical failure at night in a C172 over the bleak North Yorks moors. No electrics, no battery, no NAVAIDs - just a line on the map and a heading to fly to get me safely down (and a hand-held radio I always carried at night - just to be on the safe side!).
I remember a friend of mine having an engine failure in a C172 - all power lost - he used the lines on the map and the PLOG created using a nav. computer to carry out a (successful and expeditious) straight glide into Sywell.
In all these cases the pilots were situationally aware of where they were.
The problem these days is that, if you're not careful, total reliance is placed on 'technology' and little on common sense.
Provided you use brain first, gadget second then you should be fine. Otherwise sooner or later finger trouble, gadget failure or loss of power might catch you out.
Like most things in aviation they're great when they're working but a nightmare when they don't.
I remember those two chaps who, having flown out for the proverbial 'expensive cup of coffee' had to fly back to base in the murk using GPS. That was great - except they forgot The Wrekin was in the way and flew into the top of it. Great gadget and experienced pilots but with no other flight planning and no situational awareness - game over.
It's not always pilots either who fall foul of electronic gadgets - it was once carrying out a practice PAN with my PPL instructor and the Radar service we were using gave us vectors and an altitude to fly that took us straight into the Winter Hill mast - until the instructor asked (sarcatically) what this 2,500 mast ahead of us was!? Oops!
So at PPL/private flying level at least it's always best to plan carefully assuming something may go wrong with the 'gadget' - and to work out your alternatives if it does.
Trouble is in these days of almost total dependance on all things electronic it's unlikely that much heed will be taken - after all, many of you have said that navigational computers and the like should be relegated to the bin. The logic must therefore be that modern light aircraft are 100% reliable and nothing will fail - ever.
I don't believe that so until this level of reliability is achieved I will continue to use lines on a map and a navigational computer (if required).
I've been caught out already and know others who have too - and some have died as a consequence.
Happy GPSing.
SITW
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Well I guess if the engine fails, get the wizz wheel out, work out your wind vectors, glide ratio, and whether you'll make the airport?
Personally I'd rather NRST > ENTER ENTER...
Personally I'd rather NRST > ENTER ENTER...
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Story A - the student would have used his slide rule to complete his flight planning and been able to commence the test.
Story B - I had situational awareness and lines drawn on the map and a PLOG created using a slide rule to give me headings to fly to destination.
Story C - Pilot had used slide rule to produce PLOG and was situationally aware of route and was therefore able to immediately change heading to Sywell - no need to consult GPS (or NAVAIDs) to determine heading to fly - he only just made the field - any delay would have been critical.
Story D - If they had used a slide rule to plan their flight and drawn lines on the map they would (arguably) have seen the hill on the map.
A slide rule was not, in itself, essentail but was/would have been an intregral part of the flight planning process. In the cases where one was used there was a successful outcome, in the cases where it wasn't there was failure and death.
However these stories were from the days when GPS was not in common use, but the situational awareness issues are still valid.
Obviously the whizz wheel was not used in the air. This is about flight planning. How you would press ENTER ENTER when you have no power whatsoever is beyond me?
SITW
Story B - I had situational awareness and lines drawn on the map and a PLOG created using a slide rule to give me headings to fly to destination.
Story C - Pilot had used slide rule to produce PLOG and was situationally aware of route and was therefore able to immediately change heading to Sywell - no need to consult GPS (or NAVAIDs) to determine heading to fly - he only just made the field - any delay would have been critical.
Story D - If they had used a slide rule to plan their flight and drawn lines on the map they would (arguably) have seen the hill on the map.
A slide rule was not, in itself, essentail but was/would have been an intregral part of the flight planning process. In the cases where one was used there was a successful outcome, in the cases where it wasn't there was failure and death.
However these stories were from the days when GPS was not in common use, but the situational awareness issues are still valid.
Obviously the whizz wheel was not used in the air. This is about flight planning. How you would press ENTER ENTER when you have no power whatsoever is beyond me?
SITW