Buying my first aircraft
Join Date: Apr 2003
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Perfectly possible to buy a permit aircraft for less than 20k and run it on 5k. My MCR costs me £4k a year all in for 80hours flying.
What is your home base? The LAA has a turn up and try session on the 27th Feb. If you would like I will try to get you included. Do you have a local Strut? If you want more details, including a breakdown of the running costs of various permit aircraft send me a PM. I can also arrange a tour of my strip etc if you are not too far away.
Rod1
What is your home base? The LAA has a turn up and try session on the 27th Feb. If you would like I will try to get you included. Do you have a local Strut? If you want more details, including a breakdown of the running costs of various permit aircraft send me a PM. I can also arrange a tour of my strip etc if you are not too far away.
Rod1
Join Date: May 2001
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PS.......I forgot to say that you are absolutely right to think about buying an aeroplane. Had I not bought my original share I'd probably have given up flying in the UK altogether as renting was crap. I can just log onto our booking site, see if the plane is available, go get it, fly somewhere and then if I decided I want to stay another day, then no problem, no one gets arsey with me and tries to charge me for 2 hrs flying. I also know the transponder works and will still be there next time I decide to go flying 
Actually although I have probably "outgrown" my original Rallye share ( as I want to do more IFR stuff which the Rallye is not ideal for), it was a damn good first aeroplane. It was cheap to buy the share at about £6k, it is cheap to run at about £65 per hour, and I can come and go when I want, even out of hours. I'll be sad when we decide to sell** which is looking likely this year, but now I have bigger and better toys to play with
** It is exceedingly difficult to sell shares in an aeroplane, you can never find the right people in the right location unless you live somewhere big. As such we're probably going to try to sell the entire aeroplane as the rest of the group are in agreement. (if anyone wants the Rallye that was in the April edition of flyer last year, drop me a line
).....
Actually although I have probably "outgrown" my original Rallye share ( as I want to do more IFR stuff which the Rallye is not ideal for), it was a damn good first aeroplane. It was cheap to buy the share at about £6k, it is cheap to run at about £65 per hour, and I can come and go when I want, even out of hours. I'll be sad when we decide to sell** which is looking likely this year, but now I have bigger and better toys to play with
** It is exceedingly difficult to sell shares in an aeroplane, you can never find the right people in the right location unless you live somewhere big. As such we're probably going to try to sell the entire aeroplane as the rest of the group are in agreement. (if anyone wants the Rallye that was in the April edition of flyer last year, drop me a line
).....
Join Date: Jun 2003
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even a really well used plane of my own would spend over 99% of the year on the ground costing me money, and less than 1% in the air, "paying me back"
Except in fairly unusual business / geographical situations, one cannot rationalise a SE piston plane financially.
The justification for outright ownership can be made very easily when one considers the huge benefits - maintained to your standards, knowing nobody else has been messing with it, total access for long holidays etc, etc etc. And it gives you the lowest marginal hourly cost, which encourages and supports the highest currency, and because you always fly the same plane you are building currency on the type which is the best kind.
I fly 120-150hrs per year and have not doubted my decision for a single instant. What I have often wondered about is why there are so many useless people in GA, ranging from well meaning but useless all the way to outright shysters, and an owner gets a pretty full exposure to these people whereas a renter doesn't. It takes a little while to go up the "people learning curve"
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What I have often wondered about is why there are so many useless people in GA, ranging from well meaning but useless all the way to outright shysters, and an owner gets a pretty full exposure to these people whereas a renter doesn't. It takes a little while to go up the "people learning curve"
Join Date: Oct 2008
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I don't think you are going to get an unbiased reply on this forum.Most posters on here are share owners so most replies will advise that route.
What they will not tell you about are the times when you turn up at the airfield and the plane isn't there, or the times when another group member dings the plane and its off line for 6 months smack in the middle of the season and 2 days after getting it back someone else dings it again before you've even had the chance to sit in it.
All flying is a compromise, no one plane is the best.It would all be so easy if we all had unlimited funds...that's life.
My advice..shoot for the stars...that's what flying is all about.
First step (and most difficult) find some hangaredge.This is like rocking horse poo ( or worse dependant on where you live.) Planes are easy to come by in comparison. Then buy your permit aircraft ..the world is your oyster. If you find it too much of a struggle financially, drop back to first default position, i.e. sell a half share.
The reason that I recommend this way is because if you have to drop back, you are in a position of strength.
If you start in a group you will always have what I would describe as " group mentality" ( no disrespect intended).
The joy of sole ownership is like the cream on the cake, once you've tasted it .
On a practical note you can fly when you want, for as long as you want ,where you want.
As I said ,its all a bit of a compromise, you also get all the bills, but at least you have options.
Finally and this is more important than it may sound, when you have spent hours polishing your pride and joy, the next time you go back to the hangar it will still be clean!
What they will not tell you about are the times when you turn up at the airfield and the plane isn't there, or the times when another group member dings the plane and its off line for 6 months smack in the middle of the season and 2 days after getting it back someone else dings it again before you've even had the chance to sit in it.
All flying is a compromise, no one plane is the best.It would all be so easy if we all had unlimited funds...that's life.
My advice..shoot for the stars...that's what flying is all about.
First step (and most difficult) find some hangaredge.This is like rocking horse poo ( or worse dependant on where you live.) Planes are easy to come by in comparison. Then buy your permit aircraft ..the world is your oyster. If you find it too much of a struggle financially, drop back to first default position, i.e. sell a half share.
The reason that I recommend this way is because if you have to drop back, you are in a position of strength.
If you start in a group you will always have what I would describe as " group mentality" ( no disrespect intended).
The joy of sole ownership is like the cream on the cake, once you've tasted it .
On a practical note you can fly when you want, for as long as you want ,where you want.
As I said ,its all a bit of a compromise, you also get all the bills, but at least you have options.
Finally and this is more important than it may sound, when you have spent hours polishing your pride and joy, the next time you go back to the hangar it will still be clean!
Join Date: Jun 2003
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What they will not tell you about are the times when you turn up at the airfield and the plane isn't there, or the times when another group member dings the plane and its off line for 6 months smack in the middle of the season and 2 days after getting it back someone else dings it again before you've even had the chance to sit in it.
You should not be paying your monthly due if the group plane is not available. The insurance can be downgraded to ground risks only, etc.
The biggest risk of regular "dings" is in the very large (say 20) syndicates which for obvious reasons (not enough hours in the week) are made up mainly of low annual time / low currency pilots, and these probably have the most accidents. I have seen several such events where I am based. But then these syndicates tend to have plenty of money available (because £X/20 is not usually very onerous) and if their plane is going to be off the air for 6 months, they can lease something in. Let's face it, you will have 20 p*ssed off members wanting to fly...
Join Date: Apr 2003
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The event I mentioned is;
____________________________
Sat 27 Feb at Tibenham. If the forecast is bad and Sun looks better we may switch at short notice. Please see other thread regarding type swapping etc etc.
Please also note EVERYONE is welcome.
It would be really nice to set a new year precedence and for anyone who intends going with empty seats to offer them around.
See LAA forum for more.
Rod1
____________________________
Sat 27 Feb at Tibenham. If the forecast is bad and Sun looks better we may switch at short notice. Please see other thread regarding type swapping etc etc.
Please also note EVERYONE is welcome.
It would be really nice to set a new year precedence and for anyone who intends going with empty seats to offer them around.
See LAA forum for more.
Rod1
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lincolnshire
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Your fixed costs are:
Hangarage
Insurance
Annual
We pay:
1200
1200
2500 for Annual and a 50 hour check, we fly 100 hours a year
Add fuel - we use 32 litres an hour which equals £45 an hour
Hourly cost is £94, satisfaction 100%
LAA is much cheaper if you are happy with your own maintenance, I'm not.
So a Tomahawk will lokely to be in the same order of cost as this. The critical factor will be how well it has been looked after in the past. An annual can vary dramatically in cost.
Hangarage
Insurance
Annual
We pay:
1200
1200
2500 for Annual and a 50 hour check, we fly 100 hours a year
Add fuel - we use 32 litres an hour which equals £45 an hour
Hourly cost is £94, satisfaction 100%
LAA is much cheaper if you are happy with your own maintenance, I'm not.
So a Tomahawk will lokely to be in the same order of cost as this. The critical factor will be how well it has been looked after in the past. An annual can vary dramatically in cost.
Join Date: Apr 2003
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If you compare that with a Jodel under the LAA system;
Insurance £800
Hangarage £1000
Maintenance £1000
Fuel at 21lph mogas £23.50 an hour or £2350 for 100 hours.
About £51.50 an hour
Or an MCR01 (or similar Rotax machine)
Insurance £900
Hangarage £1000
Maintenance £300
Fuel 18lph mogas £19.30 or £1930 for 100 hours
About £39.30 per hour
Care to add an RV anyone?
Rod1
Insurance £800
Hangarage £1000
Maintenance £1000
Fuel at 21lph mogas £23.50 an hour or £2350 for 100 hours.
About £51.50 an hour
Or an MCR01 (or similar Rotax machine)
Insurance £900
Hangarage £1000
Maintenance £300
Fuel 18lph mogas £19.30 or £1930 for 100 hours
About £39.30 per hour
Care to add an RV anyone?
Rod1
Join Date: Jul 2007
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I used to share a Kitfox under the LAA scheme.
Insurance - 1000
Hangarage - 0
Annual - 300
Fuel - 18 litres an hour or £1930 for 100 hours
So £32 an hour. Downside was the cruise was 80 knots but speed is not everything.
Insurance - 1000
Hangarage - 0
Annual - 300
Fuel - 18 litres an hour or £1930 for 100 hours
So £32 an hour. Downside was the cruise was 80 knots but speed is not everything.
Join Date: Jan 2008
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Don't think the RV will compete with a rotax machine for houly costs but here goes,
My RV6
150 kts for about 28-30 ltrs an hour. 24inMP 2400RPM is just over 165 kts at 2000 feet but then your on 10 U.S.Gal an hour.
My hangerage is in the south east so £200 per month
My insurance this year was £1,300 for 60k hull insurance.
Not the cheapeast LAA machine per hour but pretty good on the MPG.
I recently went to Leipzig in germany 450nm each way for 85 ltrs each way. 3 hours each way. Probaly not as good as Rods MCR01 but comparable with some of the slower rotax machines.
Depends if you want hours in the air or MPG. For the budget your looking at then its a half share at best in an RV or you could buy a Jabiru for pretty cheap running costs. You need to get around and try a few machines as the choice isn't just about hourly costs. Even within the rotax machines theres a huge range to choose from.
My RV6
150 kts for about 28-30 ltrs an hour. 24inMP 2400RPM is just over 165 kts at 2000 feet but then your on 10 U.S.Gal an hour.
My hangerage is in the south east so £200 per month
My insurance this year was £1,300 for 60k hull insurance.
Not the cheapeast LAA machine per hour but pretty good on the MPG.
I recently went to Leipzig in germany 450nm each way for 85 ltrs each way. 3 hours each way. Probaly not as good as Rods MCR01 but comparable with some of the slower rotax machines.
Depends if you want hours in the air or MPG. For the budget your looking at then its a half share at best in an RV or you could buy a Jabiru for pretty cheap running costs. You need to get around and try a few machines as the choice isn't just about hourly costs. Even within the rotax machines theres a huge range to choose from.
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My jodel fits the bill for me.Rod's MCR fits the bill for him.Steveking's RV fits the bill for him.
Shared aircraft fits the bill for others as does renting.
If your budget is as you say and you do want to own your own aircraft, then because I am biased, a Jodel is the way to go. They are a good solid plane and although people will say they are old tech. If it ain't broke...don't fix it.
I hope to be going to Tibenham in my Jodel and will be more than happy to take you for jolly about. If you are located anywhere near to me, I fly almost every weekend and visit many airfields within an hour or so of Full Sutton. Can't be more generous than that.
Laichtown pm sent
Shared aircraft fits the bill for others as does renting.
If your budget is as you say and you do want to own your own aircraft, then because I am biased, a Jodel is the way to go. They are a good solid plane and although people will say they are old tech. If it ain't broke...don't fix it.
I hope to be going to Tibenham in my Jodel and will be more than happy to take you for jolly about. If you are located anywhere near to me, I fly almost every weekend and visit many airfields within an hour or so of Full Sutton. Can't be more generous than that.
Laichtown pm sent
Join Date: Apr 2003
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“So a Jodel seems to fit the bill, but there seems to be many different types?”
You need to get to an LAA fly in or the national rally. You will then be able to look at different aircraft etc.
“How does an aircraft qualify for the LAA PFA scheme?”
This is something I would not worry too much about as it is very complicated and about to get even more so! If you want a list of LAA approved machines have a look at the web site. Are you a member yet? If not join, you will get a mag which will help you learn more about the LAA fleet and your options.
Rod1
You need to get to an LAA fly in or the national rally. You will then be able to look at different aircraft etc.
“How does an aircraft qualify for the LAA PFA scheme?”
This is something I would not worry too much about as it is very complicated and about to get even more so! If you want a list of LAA approved machines have a look at the web site. Are you a member yet? If not join, you will get a mag which will help you learn more about the LAA fleet and your options.
Rod1
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You should also go along to a local Strut meeting. Strutus vary from excellent welcoming groups to inbred hostile natives reminiscent of certain 'flat areas of the country'.
A good Strut is a tremendous resource and will start to answer some of the very basic questions that you are putting.
As I referred to much earlier there are a lot of things you presently do not know - and you don't want to find out the expensive way!
A good Strut is a tremendous resource and will start to answer some of the very basic questions that you are putting.
As I referred to much earlier there are a lot of things you presently do not know - and you don't want to find out the expensive way!
Join Date: Oct 2004
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I agree that the very first thing to do is to go out and actually see the aircraft which have been mentioned in the various posts on this thread.
It may surprise you that some cockpits are cramped and restricted in movement and vision with one let alone two on board !
Sit in them, or better still fly in them to satisfy yourself that your budget will at least be spent in a pleasant environment ! If you are over 6' tall this may eliminate some of the two seat Jodels for example.
It boils down in my view to what you really want for your budget. Is it going places fast or simply maximising time in the air. Inevitably you will end up with a point somwhere along this spectrum but as Rod 1 and others have illustrated some of the "new wave" of Rotax machines combine speed with low operating cost and are great fun to fly.
It may surprise you that some cockpits are cramped and restricted in movement and vision with one let alone two on board !
Sit in them, or better still fly in them to satisfy yourself that your budget will at least be spent in a pleasant environment ! If you are over 6' tall this may eliminate some of the two seat Jodels for example.
It boils down in my view to what you really want for your budget. Is it going places fast or simply maximising time in the air. Inevitably you will end up with a point somwhere along this spectrum but as Rod 1 and others have illustrated some of the "new wave" of Rotax machines combine speed with low operating cost and are great fun to fly.
Join Date: Oct 2008
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Jodels are excellent first aircraft. The two seaters are basically the same airframe (11) series.They have different engine sizes and can be home built or manufactured ( most of the manufactured ones have been re- manufactured by now by homebuilders!).The 3rd digit relates to the engine/ manufacturer i.e.112 117 119 120 being the most popular.
With the 2 seaters there are a couple of exceptions notably D18/19 series, later homebuilt VW powered 2 seater, or the 150 (VERY sort after like rocking horse poo) long range roomy sold as semi aerobatic tourer.
Then there are the 100 series i.e. 105 1050/ 1051.Same idea, basically 2+2 seaters different engines etc.
The top of the range is a 4/5 seater 180hp workhorse, very popular for mountain flying/glider tugging that can lift its own weight and makes a monkey out of virtually any other 180hp aircraft. Outside of your budget and even harder to get hold of than rocking horse poo sprinkled with fairy dust.
The thing they all have in common is that they MUST be hangared.Hence my previous post. If you are thinking Jodel, you must sort out hangarage first or you are waisting your time.
Where in the uk are you?
With the 2 seaters there are a couple of exceptions notably D18/19 series, later homebuilt VW powered 2 seater, or the 150 (VERY sort after like rocking horse poo) long range roomy sold as semi aerobatic tourer.
Then there are the 100 series i.e. 105 1050/ 1051.Same idea, basically 2+2 seaters different engines etc.
The top of the range is a 4/5 seater 180hp workhorse, very popular for mountain flying/glider tugging that can lift its own weight and makes a monkey out of virtually any other 180hp aircraft. Outside of your budget and even harder to get hold of than rocking horse poo sprinkled with fairy dust.
The thing they all have in common is that they MUST be hangared.Hence my previous post. If you are thinking Jodel, you must sort out hangarage first or you are waisting your time.
Where in the uk are you?