dry-suit or liferaft?
dry-suit or liferaft?
Raft, a dry suit is really cumbersome and you look like a right tw@t stepping around in one.
Dry suit would be recommended for Atlantic flights, Iceland Greenland, that sort of thing.
A dr suit needs to be donned prior to boarding the aircraft as it is impossible to put one on in the aircraft while flying it.
Dry suit would be recommended for Atlantic flights, Iceland Greenland, that sort of thing.
A dr suit needs to be donned prior to boarding the aircraft as it is impossible to put one on in the aircraft while flying it.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Not a million miles from EGTF
Age: 68
Posts: 1,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In UK waters you'd be better off with the Mr Blobby suit. No use getting out of the aircraft and not being able to reach the liferaft, as happened past year.
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The life raft is what will save you by getting you out of the water, a dry suit will make a very quick death just a lot longer.
Reasons?
It is much easyer to see a liferaft rather than just a persons head in the sea.
It is much easyer to set off flairs Etc from a liferaft.
You will stay walmer in a liferaft.
PLB's dont work well under water and keeping them out of the water is much easyer in a liferaft..
I would recomend both the raft & the dry suit for any overwatert flight between October and April.
I also have the liferaft with me on winter overland flights if I am going over a remote area (sush as Dartmoor) as very quickly turns into a tent!
Reasons?
It is much easyer to see a liferaft rather than just a persons head in the sea.
It is much easyer to set off flairs Etc from a liferaft.
You will stay walmer in a liferaft.
PLB's dont work well under water and keeping them out of the water is much easyer in a liferaft..
I would recomend both the raft & the dry suit for any overwatert flight between October and April.
I also have the liferaft with me on winter overland flights if I am going over a remote area (sush as Dartmoor) as very quickly turns into a tent!
Why not both?
In our club aircraft I use my drysuit if flying solo, as we have no raft. On my next long planned trip, which will cover considerable water, I'll be using an immersion suit and raft over the Pacific and Atlantic, but probably just the raft for the Med, the Gulf, and Asia - haven't decided on that yet. I imagine it will come down to weather and comfort on the day!
In our club aircraft I use my drysuit if flying solo, as we have no raft. On my next long planned trip, which will cover considerable water, I'll be using an immersion suit and raft over the Pacific and Atlantic, but probably just the raft for the Med, the Gulf, and Asia - haven't decided on that yet. I imagine it will come down to weather and comfort on the day!
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Both!!! The drysuit to stop you freezing to death while you chase the life raft around trying to get into it!!!
For a long water crossing in the winter I take both. I have a gore-tex drysuit that breathes but is completely waterproof designed for falling overboard when sailing. It is light, flexible and comfortable and because it is goretex and breathes is comfortable zipped up. Neoprene boots over the top of the dry sock for the feet and neoprene gloves and hood., The hood has goggles and a nose clip attached to protect from rough seas.
For a long water crossing in the winter I take both. I have a gore-tex drysuit that breathes but is completely waterproof designed for falling overboard when sailing. It is light, flexible and comfortable and because it is goretex and breathes is comfortable zipped up. Neoprene boots over the top of the dry sock for the feet and neoprene gloves and hood., The hood has goggles and a nose clip attached to protect from rough seas.
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you do a search this debate is a yearly occurance when people start thinking about flying over the channel again.
Last time BRL got in contact with the RNLI and a safety officer came in and joined in the debate.
I must admit as a diver I was of a very pro dry suit opinion.
Turns out due to various factors that the raft is the prefered option of the RNLI to get hauled out off.
The thread if you can find it is quite informative and the RNLI safety officer spent quite alot of time doing some well written informative posts.
Last time BRL got in contact with the RNLI and a safety officer came in and joined in the debate.
I must admit as a diver I was of a very pro dry suit opinion.
Turns out due to various factors that the raft is the prefered option of the RNLI to get hauled out off.
The thread if you can find it is quite informative and the RNLI safety officer spent quite alot of time doing some well written informative posts.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Yorkshire
Age: 41
Posts: 691
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
yes, managed to find a couple of threads on here. One from last year and one from 2006.
So apologies for starting a new one, unless there are any new technologies out there, lighter dry suits etc.
Having both is obviously the best option but cost and weight are real issues. What do you pilots do who only fly over water occasionally?
Can you hire dry suits and rafts and if so where from?
£1300 to £4000 for a raft is an awful lot of money for the odd over water flight.
2006 thread
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...nel-sep-6.html
and last years
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...jackets-4.html
So apologies for starting a new one, unless there are any new technologies out there, lighter dry suits etc.
Having both is obviously the best option but cost and weight are real issues. What do you pilots do who only fly over water occasionally?
Can you hire dry suits and rafts and if so where from?
£1300 to £4000 for a raft is an awful lot of money for the odd over water flight.
2006 thread
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...nel-sep-6.html
and last years
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...jackets-4.html
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Midlands
Posts: 2,359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you have no relevant experience at getting into a raft in open water then you will probably fail. With the right training, if you get it out of the aircraft, it will be the best bet. Both is the obvious answer.
Rod1
Rod1
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Yorkshire
Age: 41
Posts: 691
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
with a PLB (of which there seems to be many options avaialble)
and possibly a handheld VHF radio already being stored in a waterproof bag like this?
Surely that would help being able to transmit on 121.5 whilst in the water.
Aquapac Waterproof Pouches, Exped Drybags, Ortlieb Dry Round Bags, Camera Cases, Mp3 cases and Mobile Phone Cases
and possibly a handheld VHF radio already being stored in a waterproof bag like this?
Surely that would help being able to transmit on 121.5 whilst in the water.
Aquapac Waterproof Pouches, Exped Drybags, Ortlieb Dry Round Bags, Camera Cases, Mp3 cases and Mobile Phone Cases
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,464
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dry suit. As soon as you get wet you are losing heat at a terrific rate, and if you end up in the water at this time of year your life expectancy is usually measured in minutes and you will rapidly become unable to climb into a lift raft. I've fallen into water that was barely above freezing twice, and it was a horrible experience both times. In each case the boat I'd fallen from picked me up PDQ, but just a couple of minutes in the water left me very, very chilled. The first time the cold water on the back of my neck left me barely able to breathe - the person in the boat managed to haul me in. Just as well that was in my slimmer days. There was no way I was able to haul myself in. I wasn't wearing a dry suit on either occasion. I've also fallen in several times wearing one and it's a completely different and far less dangerous experience. (BTW I'm not accident prone, just that falling in is an occupational hazard of dinghy sailing)
HOWEVER - without a proper life jacket and spray hood you will soon be struggling in anything but calm seas, and some hand-held flares are highly recommended regardless of if you have a raft or not.
And who cares if you look a tw@t or not? I certainly didn't when sailing, and I don't now when flying.
HOWEVER - without a proper life jacket and spray hood you will soon be struggling in anything but calm seas, and some hand-held flares are highly recommended regardless of if you have a raft or not.
And who cares if you look a tw@t or not? I certainly didn't when sailing, and I don't now when flying.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Not a million miles from EGTF
Age: 68
Posts: 1,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Surely that would help being able to transmit on 121.5 whilst in the water.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Aberdeen
Posts: 1,234
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Because of my job I have had the relevant survival training. With a typical marine or dedicated helicopter raft you will find getting into it hard work but possible.
With a small yachting or light aircraft raft it is much more difficult, the raft is almost as likely to flip over on top of you as it is to allow you to climb in if you use it at sea.
So really it has to be both.
Rafts are a heck of a price but ours is now over 10 years old and has just be recertified again (£350!!), so is 'good' for another 5 years.
The price of PLBs seems pretty good at the moment, so we have added a new McMurdo fastfind max g for £305 delivered.
With a small yachting or light aircraft raft it is much more difficult, the raft is almost as likely to flip over on top of you as it is to allow you to climb in if you use it at sea.
So really it has to be both.
Rafts are a heck of a price but ours is now over 10 years old and has just be recertified again (£350!!), so is 'good' for another 5 years.
The price of PLBs seems pretty good at the moment, so we have added a new McMurdo fastfind max g for £305 delivered.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: On the move
Posts: 940
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SCUBA diving with a dry suit has taught me to respect the water , with a noemal 7mm wetsuit I can manage about 20min in 10deg C water in a dry suit I can manage upto 40min , I think you could last longer that is just my comfort level, Things to remember is to keep some air in the dry suit for two reasons , floatation and warmth. As mentioned before a hoody as well is a good idea
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK
Age: 85
Posts: 697
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As you hit the water the aircraft will probably nose under and possibly the screen may go before popping back to float for at least a few minutes. Whatever happens you will very quickly be immersed in some very cold water which will numb you instantly. A dry suit with a head-cover will stop this initial shock and give you a sporting chance of getting through the first minute.
Without a suit, consider being totally wet and freezing cold trying to get a raft out maybe even with your life vest inflated - that's if you can get to a raft that has been thrown around inside the aircraft.
Get a bucket of water with ice in it and plunge your arm in it - imagine all your body immersed in this.
I have never been unfortunate enough to have to ditch but always felt very comfortable with a dry suit when flying over the sea.
It's worth doing a couple of test evacuations with your suit on and in safe conditions. OK, you look like Mr. Blobby and they cost a fortune each but hey!
Remember that following an engine failure you will have TIME before you ditch - at least quite a few minutes. It's worth having a 'ditching' safety card in your kneepad with the procedures you have pre-planned and with the little reminders you consider useful, for example to take your headset off before putting your helmet on, unclip the door and hold shut, note your GPS position etc.
Without a suit, consider being totally wet and freezing cold trying to get a raft out maybe even with your life vest inflated - that's if you can get to a raft that has been thrown around inside the aircraft.
Get a bucket of water with ice in it and plunge your arm in it - imagine all your body immersed in this.
I have never been unfortunate enough to have to ditch but always felt very comfortable with a dry suit when flying over the sea.
It's worth doing a couple of test evacuations with your suit on and in safe conditions. OK, you look like Mr. Blobby and they cost a fortune each but hey!
Remember that following an engine failure you will have TIME before you ditch - at least quite a few minutes. It's worth having a 'ditching' safety card in your kneepad with the procedures you have pre-planned and with the little reminders you consider useful, for example to take your headset off before putting your helmet on, unclip the door and hold shut, note your GPS position etc.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Yorkshire
Age: 41
Posts: 691
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What are they like to wear on a flight lasting a couple of hours say?
What is the best one to buy or hire?
I cannot seem to find any dedicated aviation dry suits, iss there any difference between them and diving ones?
What is the best one to buy or hire?
I cannot seem to find any dedicated aviation dry suits, iss there any difference between them and diving ones?
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,464
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I haven't worn a dry suit flying, but they are fine for dinghy sailing which is a very active sport. We wore the fabric ones with varying amounts of fleece underneath for insulation - there is no warmth in the suit itself.
You don't want a diver's dry suit as they are designed to take pressure from the breathing set.
If you want comfort look for one a breathable one, otherwise el cheapo will do fine, but do look after it properly and replace the socks / seals if they start to deteriorate - it's an easy job to do yourself. I used to keep mine hanging up so it was dry and not getting 'pinch points' squashed into it.
You don't want a diver's dry suit as they are designed to take pressure from the breathing set.
If you want comfort look for one a breathable one, otherwise el cheapo will do fine, but do look after it properly and replace the socks / seals if they start to deteriorate - it's an easy job to do yourself. I used to keep mine hanging up so it was dry and not getting 'pinch points' squashed into it.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It must depend on what is achievable practically.
The vast majority of "normal" passengers will not be seen dead in a drysuit, so that's the end of that one. If you fly alone, or only with hardened aviation anoraks, by all means wear a drysuit (and a parachute, etc
).
A life raft, as A & C says, is much better. But you need to brief passengers on how it works, to not inflate it in the cockpit who will be responsible for grabbing the EPIRB on the way out, etc, and it needs to be accessible. It also needs to be carried all the time when potentially over water - not just borrowed from somebody (who probably did not bother to get it overhauled in the last 10 years) once a year for the trip to LTQ
And if you have one, don't lend it to people; I did that and it came back opened; fortunately it was badly repacked so it was obvious; I sent it off for an overhaul which is about £80. I overhaul mine every 2 years.
Sure it will be hard to get into a raft if you end up in the water first, especially in a rough sea. Try getting into a rubber boat in a swimming pool in that way But it isn't hard if you know how and are fairly fit, and the bigger the raft is the easier it will be. The really nice ones (£2k+) come with ladders etc. The general idea would be, upon ditching, get out fast, inflate it, and get in before the plane sinks (should have a minute or two).
A raft is not cheap (about £1k+) but it presents a realistic escape route for an over-water engine failure.
I have the Survival Products one which is considerably lighter than the RFD one sold by Transair. I am sure the RFD one is "better" but it is damn heavy; I had one on loan for a bit.
For polar stuff or Atlantic crossings (which I have never done myself) I would wear a drysuit also, not to mention a raft (hoho) of other stuff like a satellite phone, but then one isn't going to have the whole extended family aboard I do actually carry a satellite phone... though not for making calls; it is for geting tafs/metars etc while airborne. One would try to grab that on the way out, obviously, along with an "emergency bag" containing a GPS, an ICOM radio, and a 406MHz EPIRB.
The vast majority of "normal" passengers will not be seen dead in a drysuit, so that's the end of that one. If you fly alone, or only with hardened aviation anoraks, by all means wear a drysuit (and a parachute, etc
).A life raft, as A & C says, is much better. But you need to brief passengers on how it works, to not inflate it in the cockpit
who will be responsible for grabbing the EPIRB on the way out, etc, and it needs to be accessible. It also needs to be carried all the time when potentially over water - not just borrowed from somebody (who probably did not bother to get it overhauled in the last 10 years) once a year for the trip to LTQ And if you have one, don't lend it to people; I did that and it came back opened; fortunately it was badly repacked so it was obvious; I sent it off for an overhaul which is about £80. I overhaul mine every 2 years.
Sure it will be hard to get into a raft if you end up in the water first, especially in a rough sea. Try getting into a rubber boat in a swimming pool in that way
But it isn't hard if you know how and are fairly fit, and the bigger the raft is the easier it will be. The really nice ones (£2k+) come with ladders etc. The general idea would be, upon ditching, get out fast, inflate it, and get in before the plane sinks (should have a minute or two).A raft is not cheap (about £1k+) but it presents a realistic escape route for an over-water engine failure.
I have the Survival Products one which is considerably lighter than the RFD one sold by Transair. I am sure the RFD one is "better" but it is damn heavy; I had one on loan for a bit.
For polar stuff or Atlantic crossings (which I have never done myself) I would wear a drysuit also, not to mention a raft (hoho) of other stuff like a satellite phone, but then one isn't going to have the whole extended family aboard
I do actually carry a satellite phone... though not for making calls; it is for geting tafs/metars etc while airborne. One would try to grab that on the way out, obviously, along with an "emergency bag" containing a GPS, an ICOM radio, and a 406MHz EPIRB.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lincolnshire
Posts: 365
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is a simple technique for getting into a liferaft involving holding onto the circumferential ropes and kicking your way onto the raft. If you try and haul yourself onto the raft you will fail and run out of puff. I'm not fit and I'm old and I have to do it every 4 years as part of my offshore survival, albeit in a calm swimming pool. Its bad for business if the training organisation kills off their customers.
At most times of the year you will need both the dry suit and the raft to survive. In cold water your life expectancy in a dry suit is 30 minutes or so. Fat bastards do better because of their blubber.
If you have to ditch then pick a little ship and try and ditch in front of them and hope they are looking out of the window. Modern ships are so undermanned that usually there will be only one person on the bridge. Unlike little aeroplanes a ship can sail along regardless without any human input or interest.
At most times of the year you will need both the dry suit and the raft to survive. In cold water your life expectancy in a dry suit is 30 minutes or so. Fat bastards do better because of their blubber.
If you have to ditch then pick a little ship and try and ditch in front of them and hope they are looking out of the window. Modern ships are so undermanned that usually there will be only one person on the bridge. Unlike little aeroplanes a ship can sail along regardless without any human input or interest.
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Although A fat bastard I would have to disagree with that.
Personally I have done 8 hours plus in a dry suit in scottish waters and been warm as toast if a little pissed off going down to 10 meters for 25mins time after time all day while the others buggered off to do a wreck leaving 4 of us with the trainees on on a trip.
Its quite normal to do 2-3 hours on mixed gas dives in a dry suit.
Personally I always found that in the water was where I was warm it was when I came out and started driving the rib or wandering around on shore and going in and out of the water that I became cold.
If all the seals were water tight and you had a hood on depending on the clothes under neither of a membrane dry suit you could easy get 4-8 hours out of them.
With a compressed neoprean again water tight I reckon you could get another few hours out of it. You could survive past 12 hours but then dehydration and other such things would start having a factor.
There was a case of a few divers missing there pick up after a drift dive and spending the night out in the Minch. The only person spending any time in Hospital was the boat driver when they got there hands on him after getting dropped off by the Sea King.
Personally I have done 8 hours plus in a dry suit in scottish waters and been warm as toast if a little pissed off going down to 10 meters for 25mins time after time all day while the others buggered off to do a wreck leaving 4 of us with the trainees on on a trip.
Its quite normal to do 2-3 hours on mixed gas dives in a dry suit.
Personally I always found that in the water was where I was warm it was when I came out and started driving the rib or wandering around on shore and going in and out of the water that I became cold.
If all the seals were water tight and you had a hood on depending on the clothes under neither of a membrane dry suit you could easy get 4-8 hours out of them.
With a compressed neoprean again water tight I reckon you could get another few hours out of it. You could survive past 12 hours but then dehydration and other such things would start having a factor.
There was a case of a few divers missing there pick up after a drift dive and spending the night out in the Minch. The only person spending any time in Hospital was the boat driver when they got there hands on him after getting dropped off by the Sea King.