Cessna 152 v Ikarus c42
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sure you can fly into them (if you have a suitable short field type). It is being based there that is hard to achieve. I tried this some years ago. No chance at all and the most straight and polite enquiries are met with a rebuff. Most of them are also very short - 500m or less.
It's not the future of GA - much as some may think so. It is the future of (mostly) brief short range bimbles which in terms of a long term "payback" for all the hassle involved in flying is a dead end.
The more intense club-type scenery is also not for people who have a life, a family, and a job; they want to come along and fly and not hang around much. The strip scene is not interested in those types. They want people who live their lives there - a bit like gliding clubs.
If GA ended up in farm strips, the pilot age demographic would shift a couple of decades nearer to the upper limit of male life expectancy than it already is
Sure there are exceptions but it's an uphill job against the Planning regs, so these will always be limited.
It's not the future of GA - much as some may think so. It is the future of (mostly) brief short range bimbles which in terms of a long term "payback" for all the hassle involved in flying is a dead end.
The more intense club-type scenery is also not for people who have a life, a family, and a job; they want to come along and fly and not hang around much. The strip scene is not interested in those types. They want people who live their lives there - a bit like gliding clubs.
If GA ended up in farm strips, the pilot age demographic would shift a couple of decades nearer to the upper limit of male life expectancy than it already is
Sure there are exceptions but it's an uphill job against the Planning regs, so these will always be limited.
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Ireland
Posts: 187
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Couldn't disagree more with you IO,
My club has 30+ aircraft based there, youngest pilot 17 years old, oldest 77 years old, many my age & younger... 42. (Well I think its still young !).. Quite the contrary, you will find a much younger generation by the sheer nature of the type of flying machine that operates there, jeans and tee-shirt brigade come to mind and where the white shirt and epaulettes would be frowned upon! short range bimbles? I think not, a short bimble is 150NM trip for us, regular trips into Europe in Micros is common for the club. I have many UK based micro pilots who visit me here in southern Ireland every year... you will find that the most vibrant and active pilots no longer fly outdated gas guzzlers, rather its the new 3 axis micros/VLA's or in the newer 4 stroke flexwings.
You have correctly identified the other end of the hobby, the type who want to turn up, have the plane out and go fly for an hour and go home, there will always be that market too, alas the costs associated with this end of the market will leave it open to the very chosen few. I have yet to get a frosty reception from a farmstrip owner, We tend to meet as strangers and leave as good friends, PPR is absolutely essential and knowing the parameters of noise abatement and protocol at the farmstrip is a must before you arrive... I have on occasion been present when pilots get an earful from an owner for arriving unannounced, flying over no fly areas in an aeroplane without a silencer fitted, where a simple phone call would have informed him on what's accepted, that I find is one big issue with farm strips, they are not "established" airfields/airports therefore require a different approach to the flying that takes place there. Its horses for courses, it suits some, others would never fit in, for many of us the freedom that grass strip flying and the simpler side of flying gives cannot be beat.
Anyway, this thread has lead to a drift from the original opening posters question, C152 or Ikarus C42, well I think you have now established that you will do things in a C42 you couldn't dream of doing in a 152 and likewise of the cessna, As a C42 owner my opinion may be biased, but having flown both I know the one I will be keeping. All the best and good luck what-ever way you decide.
Regards,
Jon
www.RuskeyAirfield.com
My club has 30+ aircraft based there, youngest pilot 17 years old, oldest 77 years old, many my age & younger... 42. (Well I think its still young !).. Quite the contrary, you will find a much younger generation by the sheer nature of the type of flying machine that operates there, jeans and tee-shirt brigade come to mind and where the white shirt and epaulettes would be frowned upon! short range bimbles? I think not, a short bimble is 150NM trip for us, regular trips into Europe in Micros is common for the club. I have many UK based micro pilots who visit me here in southern Ireland every year... you will find that the most vibrant and active pilots no longer fly outdated gas guzzlers, rather its the new 3 axis micros/VLA's or in the newer 4 stroke flexwings.
You have correctly identified the other end of the hobby, the type who want to turn up, have the plane out and go fly for an hour and go home, there will always be that market too, alas the costs associated with this end of the market will leave it open to the very chosen few. I have yet to get a frosty reception from a farmstrip owner, We tend to meet as strangers and leave as good friends, PPR is absolutely essential and knowing the parameters of noise abatement and protocol at the farmstrip is a must before you arrive... I have on occasion been present when pilots get an earful from an owner for arriving unannounced, flying over no fly areas in an aeroplane without a silencer fitted, where a simple phone call would have informed him on what's accepted, that I find is one big issue with farm strips, they are not "established" airfields/airports therefore require a different approach to the flying that takes place there. Its horses for courses, it suits some, others would never fit in, for many of us the freedom that grass strip flying and the simpler side of flying gives cannot be beat.
Anyway, this thread has lead to a drift from the original opening posters question, C152 or Ikarus C42, well I think you have now established that you will do things in a C42 you couldn't dream of doing in a 152 and likewise of the cessna, As a C42 owner my opinion may be biased, but having flown both I know the one I will be keeping. All the best and good luck what-ever way you decide.
Regards,
Jon
www.RuskeyAirfield.com
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jonkil - it's great to know you have such a good setup. However, from your website
limits ops to the very short field types, and to very little crosswind given how narrow the runway is. None of the capable long range tourers (Cirrus, TB2x, Mooney, and upwards) could go there.
I can see one possible reason why it is just 400m. There is a very short supply of land where a single owner owns more than 400m in a straight line.
Or, have the plane out and go somewhere, and come back a few days later. One gets far more value out of flying if one can go somewhere useful or interesting.
PPR is also a bit tricky if the strip owner doesn't answer the phone... a couple of months ago I planned to visit a friend based near a "strictly PPR" grass strip (750m) in the N of England; it took me 2 days to get the man to answer and my friend said this is pretty common and one would just fly anyway. So it is PPR or isn't it PPR? In the end I didn't go because it rained and the place was probably too waterlogged.
It does indeed take more money to fly as I and many others do, but it would be incorrect to think that GA can shrink down to the "400m" strip types and all would be OK.
400 metres x 10 metres
I can see one possible reason why it is just 400m. There is a very short supply of land where a single owner owns more than 400m in a straight line.
You have correctly identified the other end of the hobby, the type who want to turn up, have the plane out and go fly for an hour and go home
PPR is also a bit tricky if the strip owner doesn't answer the phone... a couple of months ago I planned to visit a friend based near a "strictly PPR" grass strip (750m) in the N of England; it took me 2 days to get the man to answer and my friend said this is pretty common and one would just fly anyway. So it is PPR or isn't it PPR? In the end I didn't go because it rained and the place was probably too waterlogged.
It does indeed take more money to fly as I and many others do, but it would be incorrect to think that GA can shrink down to the "400m" strip types and all would be OK.
We'll always need bigger airfields - but if the number of aircraft that need a lot of runway continues to reduce, do we really need so many?
If a county contains a couple of long runways, and a couple of dozen decent farmstrips, at-least half of them readily available for everybody to use, we're not really badly off are we?
G
If a county contains a couple of long runways, and a couple of dozen decent farmstrips, at-least half of them readily available for everybody to use, we're not really badly off are we?
G
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Cessna goes in and out of 400m without problem and is a very capable tourer. I would not write off a strip just because the don't suit a small minority of aircraft. Hell, I can get the Dornier in and out of 400m grass!!
I can see what you are saying Peter, being an IFR tourist myself it is great to have the long full function airfields but they are serving a small minority and we need to remember that aviation is vastly bigger than you running around in your TB20. For probably 90% of the UK GA flyers 400m is probably a long strip!!
Or you made an assumption that cut your nose off to spite your face. The only thing that takes our grass strip out of action is a long period of sustained deluge. We are on top of limestone and it drains within hours. A lot of strips are like this. Some are not, but that is the purpose of PPR?
I can see what you are saying Peter, being an IFR tourist myself it is great to have the long full function airfields but they are serving a small minority and we need to remember that aviation is vastly bigger than you running around in your TB20. For probably 90% of the UK GA flyers 400m is probably a long strip!!
In the end I didn't go because it rained and the place was probably too waterlogged.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We'll always need bigger airfields - but if the number of aircraft that need a lot of runway continues to reduce, do we really need so many?
If a county contains a couple of long runways, and a couple of dozen decent farmstrips, at-least half of them readily available for everybody to use, we're not really badly off are we?
If a county contains a couple of long runways, and a couple of dozen decent farmstrips, at-least half of them readily available for everybody to use, we're not really badly off are we?
Take the south east, south of London.
You have
Bournemouth
Southampton
Lee on Solent
Goodwood
Shoreham
Biggin
Redhill
Rochester
Headcorn
Lydd
Manston
etc
It sounds a lot but... first to last is a vast driving distance - about 5 hours. Just Lydd (which is a great GA airfield) to Shoreham, or to more or less anywhere where anybody lives, is 2.5 hours. The other Kent airfields are 1-2hrs from anywhere, due to poor roads. Even Brighton to Biggin is ~ 1hr. Etc.
Some of them are waterlogged right now and unusable. Most have no available hangarage so your IFR plane rots in the open.
I would guess that the average drive to a hard runway airfield is about 1hr. I am quite lucky at 20mins but if that one closed it would be 1hr and that substantially reduces the utility value for intra-UK flights.
It's a lot easier up North, and in Norfolk etc.
In between all this, according to PC Plod I spoke to last year, are 83 private strips and that is just Sussex. Many more in Kent and Hants. But one cannot get an IFR tourer into any of these; I did try some years ago and all were very tight groups; you may as well ask the fishing clubs if you can water-ski on their lake
Bosex if I responded to you I would get another threatening PM from you, and I have no interest in these, thank you.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bosex if I responded to you I would get another threatening PM from you, and I have no interest in these, thank you.
**You only get 'threatening' emails when you make it personal.
Last edited by S-Works; 12th Jan 2010 at 12:33.
As Bose-X says, high performance tourers are a minority occupation and whilst I'd defend anybody's right to enjoy that sort of flying - given they're a minority, they can hardly expect a majority of airfields to naturally be able to accomodate them.
But, there are plenty of lower performance aeroplanes that will use short strips, and go IFR, they're just a little slower. What's the loss? - you get a bit more flying time, which probably you then claw back by less travelling time on the ground to your destination. Great - I'd rather have it that way around myself.
And I really don't believe that most strips will object to any aircraft type - okay, there are a few anal individuals managing airfields (such as those at London Colney who seem to have recently declared themselves "microlights only", or the reverse at Thruxton who are "Group A only") but they're really very few and far between.
G
But, there are plenty of lower performance aeroplanes that will use short strips, and go IFR, they're just a little slower. What's the loss? - you get a bit more flying time, which probably you then claw back by less travelling time on the ground to your destination. Great - I'd rather have it that way around myself.
And I really don't believe that most strips will object to any aircraft type - okay, there are a few anal individuals managing airfields (such as those at London Colney who seem to have recently declared themselves "microlights only", or the reverse at Thruxton who are "Group A only") but they're really very few and far between.
G
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Aberdeen
Posts: 1,234
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A lot of vested interests here. IFR tourers are a very tiny part of the GA fleet. Their financial contribution is accordingly pretty small - although not on an individual basis. Of the 850,000 hrs that the CAA estimate GA fly what fo IFR tourers account for? Less than 0.5%? Possibly even less than that. High profile on bulletin boards but a tiny minority of GA generally.
All of those licensed facilities cost an increasing amount of money and the places that offer them typically see almost any other kind of business (LOCOs, parking, light industry, shops etc) as offering much higher returns.
And that is what is moving the vast majority of GA out of licensed fields onto strips. Certainly 'getting into' a strip relies on connections, the right aircraft and the right attitude. Given the various spats that occur here I would guess few are strip flyers!!!
I certainly dislike operating from licensed fields - if only because of the petty rules, the stupid yellow tabards and the fees - for facilities which apart from the tarmac are of no use to me.
My local strips have a demographic which starts at late 20s and as you say moves through to retired folk. My licensed airfield only has young 'hours building' instructors - everyone else is at least middle aged - the classic GA profile. If there is a future for GA it is not at licensed airfields, the costs simply mean only the well heeled can afford it - and the facilities on offer at the vast majority of fields make almost any other leisure activity including bog diving more attractive!
The present licensed airfield flying club is never going to attract 'high net worth' individuals to a portacabin occupied by secondhand furniture and 20 year old instructors with the inter-personal skills of a marionette. That is where much of the flying school part of 'GA' sits. No wonder it is shrinking!
All of those licensed facilities cost an increasing amount of money and the places that offer them typically see almost any other kind of business (LOCOs, parking, light industry, shops etc) as offering much higher returns.
And that is what is moving the vast majority of GA out of licensed fields onto strips. Certainly 'getting into' a strip relies on connections, the right aircraft and the right attitude. Given the various spats that occur here I would guess few are strip flyers!!!
I certainly dislike operating from licensed fields - if only because of the petty rules, the stupid yellow tabards and the fees - for facilities which apart from the tarmac are of no use to me.
My local strips have a demographic which starts at late 20s and as you say moves through to retired folk. My licensed airfield only has young 'hours building' instructors - everyone else is at least middle aged - the classic GA profile. If there is a future for GA it is not at licensed airfields, the costs simply mean only the well heeled can afford it - and the facilities on offer at the vast majority of fields make almost any other leisure activity including bog diving more attractive!
The present licensed airfield flying club is never going to attract 'high net worth' individuals to a portacabin occupied by secondhand furniture and 20 year old instructors with the inter-personal skills of a marionette. That is where much of the flying school part of 'GA' sits. No wonder it is shrinking!
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Midlands
Posts: 2,359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The strip I am based on is 650m with very good approaches. ½ the aircraft based there are capable of 120k+ in the cruse and all these are used for long distance touring. One guy commutes to his house on Jersey in his PA28R on a regular basis.
There are two groups of people contributing to this thread; one group are flying from unlicensed airfields and understand the position and the others do not and have no clue.
Rod1
There are two groups of people contributing to this thread; one group are flying from unlicensed airfields and understand the position and the others do not and have no clue.
Rod1
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't see what "licensed" has to do with it. It is no more than a CAA measure which presumably arose partly from CAA inbred elitism and partly from pressure put on the CAA by training industry interests / restrictive practices.
A perfectly good GA airfield would have a hard runway so you have all weather operation, lights so it can be used after dark (ideally pilot controlled
), hangarage, a hut with a kettle, and a car park. And a GPS approach of course, with some remotely located controller scheduling it And a common frequency one can talk on.
But hang on.... aren't I describing a very common American situation here??? No, that can't work; the American GA scene is on its knees and airports are surrounded by wreckage.
Welshpool (and many others I've been to) is kind-of close... but hang on, they charge £10 to land which 99.43% of UK GA will not pay. Perfectly understandably too, since they spent only 12.5p on mogas on the flight, and they can get their Rotax overhauled for £10.
If Planning was not an issue, the UK would have loads of strips but with tarmac, and the existing licensed airports would become irrelevant to most GA (except for the few people who live on their doorstep). It costs only about £300k to tarmac a 800m runway (well enough for a plane up to a 421C or similar) well within the means of a sizeable owning syndicate.
A perfectly good GA airfield would have a hard runway so you have all weather operation, lights so it can be used after dark (ideally pilot controlled
), hangarage, a hut with a kettle, and a car park. And a GPS approach of course, with some remotely located controller scheduling it And a common frequency one can talk on. But hang on.... aren't I describing a very common American situation here??? No, that can't work; the American GA scene is on its knees and airports are surrounded by wreckage.
Welshpool (and many others I've been to) is kind-of close... but hang on, they charge £10 to land which 99.43% of UK GA will not pay. Perfectly understandably too, since they spent only 12.5p on mogas on the flight, and they can get their Rotax overhauled for £10.
If Planning was not an issue, the UK would have loads of strips but with tarmac, and the existing licensed airports would become irrelevant to most GA (except for the few people who live on their doorstep). It costs only about £300k to tarmac a 800m runway (well enough for a plane up to a 421C or similar) well within the means of a sizeable owning syndicate.
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Midlands
Posts: 2,359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IO540
So you are saying that the critical bit is tarmac? Why do you need tarmac? If a grass airfield is well situated and drained it is good for all year round operation. The strip I operate off was open 364 days last year and the year before. Of course you would have to be used to grass field operation to know that…
Rod1
So you are saying that the critical bit is tarmac? Why do you need tarmac? If a grass airfield is well situated and drained it is good for all year round operation. The strip I operate off was open 364 days last year and the year before. Of course you would have to be used to grass field operation to know that…
Rod1
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Ireland
Posts: 187
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My airfield is 400m x 10m, this is wide, I can make it 1000m long and 50 wide if need be, I don't because it is simply not required for the flying I do, and to boot it takes me 20 mins a week to maintain what I have with the tractor and mower. what about Letterkenny airfield, I am a member there too, because it is a wet grass airfield we laid down a tarmac strip.. 550m x 4.5 m....and that is manageable, I argue your point regarding crosswind ability, that is based on the pilots ability and the pilots comfort level in doing so... In the windy north west of Ireland you would sit out good flying days if you had not learned proper crosswind techniques. !... IO, your not wrong in what you say, your assumptions of what is acceptable is based on your type of flying, as for a 400x10 strip being unacceptable... yes maybe for a TB20, not for the PA16 clipper or the other stuff that come in here, and definitely not for the new plastic fantastic rotax stuff.
VFR day flying is what "most" GA types do, this is now manageable away from designated airports and the move this way has become more pronounced in the past few years and will become even more so in affordable micros/VLA types that are now so commonplace all over Europe.
The good thing about farmstrip flying in capable aircraft is the ability to use the shorter grass fields that are numerous all over the place where a warm welcome is assured..... provided you adopt the proper protocol !
Jon
(ps) Anyone welcome to my place with aircraft capable of 400 metre operations, PPR by telephone... naturally.
www.RuskeyAirfield.com
VFR day flying is what "most" GA types do, this is now manageable away from designated airports and the move this way has become more pronounced in the past few years and will become even more so in affordable micros/VLA types that are now so commonplace all over Europe.
The good thing about farmstrip flying in capable aircraft is the ability to use the shorter grass fields that are numerous all over the place where a warm welcome is assured..... provided you adopt the proper protocol !
Jon
(ps) Anyone welcome to my place with aircraft capable of 400 metre operations, PPR by telephone... naturally.
www.RuskeyAirfield.com
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: York
Age: 53
Posts: 797
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I do agree oh for pilot controlled lighting. However
"they charge £10 to land which 99.43% of UK GA will not pay"
I don't/can't think of anyone or thinks 10 quid landing fee is too much. However what I disagree with and I suspect most others do is the horrendous cost for mandatory services such as handling. Which I don’t want, offers absolutely no benefits apart from a 200 meter taxi drive which at upwards of 50 quid is a blatant ripoff.
"they charge £10 to land which 99.43% of UK GA will not pay"
I don't/can't think of anyone or thinks 10 quid landing fee is too much. However what I disagree with and I suspect most others do is the horrendous cost for mandatory services such as handling. Which I don’t want, offers absolutely no benefits apart from a 200 meter taxi drive which at upwards of 50 quid is a blatant ripoff.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
However what I disagree with and I suspect most others do is the horrendous cost for mandatory services such as handling. Which I don’t want, offers absolutely no benefits apart from a 200 meter taxi drive which at upwards of 50 quid is a blatant ripoff.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: uk
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Finally got around to it!
I know i started this thread a while ago but today i tried out an Ikarus c42 at Southern Light Flyers based at Deanland. Cracking flight puts the fun back into flying and it uses around 14 litres of mogas an hour this is reflected in the hourly charges which are a breath of fresh air compared to hiring a c152 out of Shoreham.Kieth Mitchell my instructor put me at ease and was friendly and very experienced.
The Ikarus controls seem much more responsive compared to a cessna 152 or 172 and its even got more room inside the cabin. The aircraft looks great handles well and is modern.
The aircraft has a BRS system (Ballistic recovery system ) ideal if things go horribly wrong or if your instructor starts shouting at you.........................Kevin Dermott.
The Ikarus controls seem much more responsive compared to a cessna 152 or 172 and its even got more room inside the cabin. The aircraft looks great handles well and is modern.
The aircraft has a BRS system (Ballistic recovery system ) ideal if things go horribly wrong or if your instructor starts shouting at you.........................Kevin Dermott.
Last edited by seymour beaver; 16th Oct 2011 at 18:44.
