Sandown Closing?
niknak
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,335
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's not like that. Years ago there were allotments owned by Norwich City Council next to the airport. A handful of people had sheds there and grew veg and socialised. However after years of protest the site was sold and is now a hotel/McDonalds etc.
... and the allotments were relocated over the road into a fertile field. The new site has it's own car park and each allotment holder was given a free, permanent garden shed, allotments a third larger than previous ones and a free water supply. All paid for by the developer of course.
Perhaps someone could convince any prospective developer at Sandown that an "Airpark Community" (with their own allotments) would be an attractive investment.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Not a million miles from EGTF
Age: 68
Posts: 1,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quite
While pilots whinge about £10 landing fees, we are going to lose a lot of GA airfields.
We need to accept that if our key airfields are going to survive they need to make a living.
I was at one very GA-friendly airfield that offered free landings in the expectation that arrivals would refuel.
In reality, every arrival presented the free landing voucher but took on no fuel. What is worse they whinged about the regular £9 landing fee.
If we want our airfields to be there for us we need to make it worthwhile for the owners to be there. Otherwise we'll see them tarmaced or built over.
While pilots whinge about £10 landing fees, we are going to lose a lot of GA airfields.
We need to accept that if our key airfields are going to survive they need to make a living.
I was at one very GA-friendly airfield that offered free landings in the expectation that arrivals would refuel.
In reality, every arrival presented the free landing voucher but took on no fuel. What is worse they whinged about the regular £9 landing fee.
If we want our airfields to be there for us we need to make it worthwhile for the owners to be there. Otherwise we'll see them tarmaced or built over.
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 2,118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I must admit that it is a crying shame that there are no successful Air Parks in the UK along the lines of those in the states or France, since on the face of it this might prove a viable and profitable compromise venture for both pilots and developers.
I can only ever recall one serious attempt at one a number of years ago but the planners of course shot it down in flames.
I can only ever recall one serious attempt at one a number of years ago but the planners of course shot it down in flames.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: London
Age: 52
Posts: 585
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I must admit that it is a crying shame that there are no successful Air Parks in the UK along the lines of those in the states or France, since on the face of it this might prove a viable and profitable compromise venture for both pilots and developers.
I would LOVE to live on an airpark
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Midlands
Posts: 2,359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
“While pilots whinge about £10 landing fees, we are going to lose a lot of GA airfields.
We need to accept that if our key airfields are going to survive they need to make a living.
I was at one very GA-friendly airfield that offered free landings in the expectation that arrivals would refuel.”
Did the airfield concerned offer Mogas? Many strips do not charge landing fees and have Mogas, or the facility to get it. Not much help if you need night or IFR approaches, but works for most of us. GA is changing, and some, like Sywell for example, are changing with it, others are offering the same old mix that worked 20 years ago but is not as relevant today.
Rod1
We need to accept that if our key airfields are going to survive they need to make a living.
I was at one very GA-friendly airfield that offered free landings in the expectation that arrivals would refuel.”
Did the airfield concerned offer Mogas? Many strips do not charge landing fees and have Mogas, or the facility to get it. Not much help if you need night or IFR approaches, but works for most of us. GA is changing, and some, like Sywell for example, are changing with it, others are offering the same old mix that worked 20 years ago but is not as relevant today.
Rod1
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think that the exact airfield services is like rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic.
Given that well over 90% of light GA is people doing burger runs ("social flying") what is needed to make an airfield successful is a nice social environment.
This topic has been done to death here so many times, but basically the old GA anorak scene is a turnoff for most modern men, and for 99.9% of women regardless of whether modern or not.
One needs a lively social environment and then people will hang around, fly out of the place, and visit the place from elsewhere, and spent money there.
Take a look at any other activity which modern well-funded humans participate in. Individuals with any sort of money are highly strategic as to where they spend it.
One needs a nice cafe, good (not dirt cheap crap) food, clean so your hand doesn't get stuck to the table, and the based school(s) need to provide decent facilities for both students and "mature" pilots.
Given that well over 90% of light GA is people doing burger runs ("social flying") what is needed to make an airfield successful is a nice social environment.
This topic has been done to death here so many times, but basically the old GA anorak scene is a turnoff for most modern men, and for 99.9% of women regardless of whether modern or not.
One needs a lively social environment and then people will hang around, fly out of the place, and visit the place from elsewhere, and spent money there.
Take a look at any other activity which modern well-funded humans participate in. Individuals with any sort of money are highly strategic as to where they spend it.
One needs a nice cafe, good (not dirt cheap crap) food, clean so your hand doesn't get stuck to the table, and the based school(s) need to provide decent facilities for both students and "mature" pilots.
niknak
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,335
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On the way home from London today Mrs N and I dropped in on an "off motorway & major route" cafe that is reknowned for serving excellent grub at excellent prices.
We didn't pitch up until about 3pm and found that they were clearing up to shut up for the day, weekdays they never shut before 7pm.
When I queried this they were quite willing to serve us, and the service was as good as ever, but the owner made it quite clear that if he wasn't going to make money on a regular basis, there was no way he was going to keep the place open when no one was there.
The point is that this applies to all aspects of business, I admit that perhaps aviation is a bit more tricky than other industries, but if the customers don't turn up and spend their money when the best offers the owner can make are available, then don't expect the facility to be there ad infinitum.
We didn't pitch up until about 3pm and found that they were clearing up to shut up for the day, weekdays they never shut before 7pm.
When I queried this they were quite willing to serve us, and the service was as good as ever, but the owner made it quite clear that if he wasn't going to make money on a regular basis, there was no way he was going to keep the place open when no one was there.
The point is that this applies to all aspects of business, I admit that perhaps aviation is a bit more tricky than other industries, but if the customers don't turn up and spend their money when the best offers the owner can make are available, then don't expect the facility to be there ad infinitum.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Not a million miles from EGTF
Age: 68
Posts: 1,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
...Many strips do not charge landing fees and have Mogas, or the facility to get it. Not much help if you need night or IFR approaches, but works for most of us.
At our local airfield there has been a number of requests to have Mogas on tap as well as Avgas and Jet A1. The airfield operator made it clear that if was not cost-effective at the moment to do that.
Anyone brave enough to run an airfield in the current climate is going to be watching the pennies over the next year or so.
As I said earlier we should be keeping airfields alive by paying a REASONABLE price for the facilities and not push for something for nothing.
Otherwise we will all be operating from farm strips in future......
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Midlands
Posts: 2,359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Robin
“There is a difference, Rod, between a strip with limited facilities and mid-range airfields/aerodromes.”
“As I said earlier we should be keeping airfields alive by paying a REASONABLE price for the facilities and not push for something for nothing.”
I am prepared to pay for facilities which I need, no problem. I will have a stab at the difference in facilities between the mid range airfield and the strip;
NDB
Avgas
M3 maintenance
Tarmac runway
Flying school
Licensed runway
None of the above is of any interest to me, apart from the tarmac runway in exceptional weather (we have operated out of our strip without a problem for some years). If you put a free landing offer in a mag I may come along, but I will not be putting fuel in as you have decided not to supply suitable fuel! I will buy a cup of tea and a bacon butty though. Many of the modern micro/VLA types will be in the same position. Strip operation is booming, the LAA fleet is at record levels and membership is up. Traditional GA is doing very badly. Some strips now have multiple hangers, busy micro flight schools and are making money. I anticipate that some of the traditional airfields will copy this model, others are probably planning on putting the landing fee up from £10 to £20 to £30 etc.
Rod1
“There is a difference, Rod, between a strip with limited facilities and mid-range airfields/aerodromes.”
“As I said earlier we should be keeping airfields alive by paying a REASONABLE price for the facilities and not push for something for nothing.”
I am prepared to pay for facilities which I need, no problem. I will have a stab at the difference in facilities between the mid range airfield and the strip;
NDB
Avgas
M3 maintenance
Tarmac runway
Flying school
Licensed runway
None of the above is of any interest to me, apart from the tarmac runway in exceptional weather (we have operated out of our strip without a problem for some years). If you put a free landing offer in a mag I may come along, but I will not be putting fuel in as you have decided not to supply suitable fuel! I will buy a cup of tea and a bacon butty though. Many of the modern micro/VLA types will be in the same position. Strip operation is booming, the LAA fleet is at record levels and membership is up. Traditional GA is doing very badly. Some strips now have multiple hangers, busy micro flight schools and are making money. I anticipate that some of the traditional airfields will copy this model, others are probably planning on putting the landing fee up from £10 to £20 to £30 etc.
Rod1
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The problem, Rod1, is that your approach would relegate GA to farm strips.
That in turn would decimate the GA scene - because the vast majority of pilots don't have access to a farm strip.
Farm strips (yes I have looked at a good few) are prized property, tightly held by tightly knit pilot groups who tend to have their heads stuck firmly up the farmer's back end (I mean that in the nicest possible way) otherwise he will turf them out with zero notice. They are generally unwelcoming (sometimes exceedingly so) to enquiring pilots who are not flying a range of favoured machinery - usually a rag and tube type.
Obviously there are variations, and things get generally easier "up north" where there are many more options, but if GA had to go to farm strips, the majority of people who actually fly to places for real would have to pack up.
And setting up a strip from scratch for "obviously" more than 28 days' usage a year (something I am a bit familiar with too) is so difficult as to be not a viable option for 99% of pilots. Even if you found the land, and got a secure enough deal on it, you are looking well into 5 digits for the planning/appeals process.
We do need to look after the "proper" GA airfields.
Looking at Sandown as a business, IMHO it hung by the social facilities. Most flights for a "purpose" or a business to the IOW would have gone to Bembridge. Tricky...
That in turn would decimate the GA scene - because the vast majority of pilots don't have access to a farm strip.
Farm strips (yes I have looked at a good few) are prized property, tightly held by tightly knit pilot groups who tend to have their heads stuck firmly up the farmer's back end (I mean that in the nicest possible way) otherwise he will turf them out with zero notice. They are generally unwelcoming (sometimes exceedingly so) to enquiring pilots who are not flying a range of favoured machinery - usually a rag and tube type.
Obviously there are variations, and things get generally easier "up north" where there are many more options, but if GA had to go to farm strips, the majority of people who actually fly to places for real would have to pack up.
And setting up a strip from scratch for "obviously" more than 28 days' usage a year (something I am a bit familiar with too) is so difficult as to be not a viable option for 99% of pilots. Even if you found the land, and got a secure enough deal on it, you are looking well into 5 digits for the planning/appeals process.
We do need to look after the "proper" GA airfields.
Looking at Sandown as a business, IMHO it hung by the social facilities. Most flights for a "purpose" or a business to the IOW would have gone to Bembridge. Tricky...
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was under the impression that Sandown were only closing as a licensed airfield hence getting rid of the tower and fire staff etc and would be continuing unlicensed pretty much as a private strip but welcoming to visitors. That leaves the Island with a licensed field with a good runway and an unlicensed one with nice enough facilities.
I suspect as an unlicensed field open to visitors it probably stands a chance of at least breaking even......
I suspect as an unlicensed field open to visitors it probably stands a chance of at least breaking even......
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Not a million miles from EGTF
Age: 68
Posts: 1,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think we'll have to agree to disagree, Rod1
Our mid-range airfield - one of the few really keen GA-friendly ones - is being besieged by strip flyers looking for accommodation for the winter due to waterlogging.
It is thanks to a very beneficial owner taking some very hard knocks from various governmental agencies (Ofcom is on the horizon too) the airfield is there for all of us.
We have had a number of fly-ins at the airfield (and I have seen you at some of them). Each time the airfield was very busy but the income was hardly worthwhile opening up for, as everyone brought along a free landing voucher and bought no fuel, despite it being one of the cheapest in the country.
But if people only dip in as and when and only buy the occasional butty, then one day the owners will chuck it in and hand the airfield over to a developer (as some strip owners have done, as well)
Our mid-range airfield - one of the few really keen GA-friendly ones - is being besieged by strip flyers looking for accommodation for the winter due to waterlogging.
It is thanks to a very beneficial owner taking some very hard knocks from various governmental agencies (Ofcom is on the horizon too) the airfield is there for all of us.
We have had a number of fly-ins at the airfield (and I have seen you at some of them). Each time the airfield was very busy but the income was hardly worthwhile opening up for, as everyone brought along a free landing voucher and bought no fuel, despite it being one of the cheapest in the country.
But if people only dip in as and when and only buy the occasional butty, then one day the owners will chuck it in and hand the airfield over to a developer (as some strip owners have done, as well)
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Central London
Posts: 460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is thanks to a very beneficial owner taking some very hard knocks from various governmental agencies (Ofcom is on the horizon too) the airfield is there for all of us.
We have had a number of fly-ins at the airfield (and I have seen you at some of them). Each time the airfield was very busy but the income was hardly worthwhile opening up for, as everyone brought along a free landing voucher and bought no fuel, despite it being one of the cheapest in the country.
But if people only dip in as and when and only buy the occasional butty, then one day the owners will chuck it in and hand the airfield over to a developer (as some strip owners have done, as well)
We have had a number of fly-ins at the airfield (and I have seen you at some of them). Each time the airfield was very busy but the income was hardly worthwhile opening up for, as everyone brought along a free landing voucher and bought no fuel, despite it being one of the cheapest in the country.
But if people only dip in as and when and only buy the occasional butty, then one day the owners will chuck it in and hand the airfield over to a developer (as some strip owners have done, as well)
All for a few nice day/weekend visitors who begrudge spending a tenner to use the facility.
If you want to sell a couple of cups of tea and a burger then a layby and a hot dog van is a better bet.
The same scenario is played out across the UK with village and country pubs.
A few weekend visitors buying a pint or two do not justify the investment or cover the costs. Hence the current trend to turn pubs in to houses which offer a better return.
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Midlands
Posts: 2,359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
“The problem, Rod1, is that your approach would relegate GA to farm strips.”
No that is not what I am saying. If you take your “licensed GA airfield” and you;
Turn off the NDB
Cancel the license
Abandon the a/g radio
close of the GA flying school and replace with a micro school and possibly Gliding.
Build more hangers (possibly financed by members)
Improve the catering.
Continue to welcome visitors as before and run flyins etc.
You now have what I suspect is a much better business. There are several examples of this, Popham would be an obvious one.
“I think we'll have to agree to disagree, Rod1”
Robin, please understand, I am quite willing to support airfields, but yours has decided not to cater for my type of flying!
Rod1
No that is not what I am saying. If you take your “licensed GA airfield” and you;
Turn off the NDB
Cancel the license
Abandon the a/g radio
close of the GA flying school and replace with a micro school and possibly Gliding.
Build more hangers (possibly financed by members)
Improve the catering.
Continue to welcome visitors as before and run flyins etc.
You now have what I suspect is a much better business. There are several examples of this, Popham would be an obvious one.
“I think we'll have to agree to disagree, Rod1”
Robin, please understand, I am quite willing to support airfields, but yours has decided not to cater for my type of flying!
Rod1
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Not a million miles from EGTF
Age: 68
Posts: 1,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
but yours has decided not to cater for my type of flying!
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 4,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sadly, I am not sure how viable Sandown is.
I would guess that there are not a great many pilots that own aircraft on the I of W. Certainly even in the "good old days" there did not seem to be many aircraft parked at Sandown, or for that matter Bembridge, and things have got worse since then.
This has left both airfields reliant on other income. Bembridge are fortunate in having a hard runway which is sufficient to cream off any commercial activity (the coast guard flights etc). Moreover having a commercial operator based on the field brings other business and doubtless contributes significantly to the bills.
Sadly, Sandown has very little of any of this and I suspect is almost totally reliant on visitors of which there are just not enough these days made worse but the problems using Sandown when the ground is wet.
In France of course the airfield would be subsidised by the local community - but we are not France and everything must make a profit and a return on the inverstment if it is to survive in modern day Britain.
I shall never the less be very sad to see Sandown lost to GA if that happens and wish them well operating with lower overheads if that proves possible.
I would guess that there are not a great many pilots that own aircraft on the I of W. Certainly even in the "good old days" there did not seem to be many aircraft parked at Sandown, or for that matter Bembridge, and things have got worse since then.
This has left both airfields reliant on other income. Bembridge are fortunate in having a hard runway which is sufficient to cream off any commercial activity (the coast guard flights etc). Moreover having a commercial operator based on the field brings other business and doubtless contributes significantly to the bills.
Sadly, Sandown has very little of any of this and I suspect is almost totally reliant on visitors of which there are just not enough these days made worse but the problems using Sandown when the ground is wet.
In France of course the airfield would be subsidised by the local community - but we are not France and everything must make a profit and a return on the inverstment if it is to survive in modern day Britain.
I shall never the less be very sad to see Sandown lost to GA if that happens and wish them well operating with lower overheads if that proves possible.
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Central London
Posts: 460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In France of course the airfield would be subsidised by the local community - but we are not France and everything must make a profit and a return on the inverstment if it is to survive in modern day Britain.
Norwich,Ipswich,Shoreham,Exeter,Plymouth,Cardiff,Swansea,Bri stol,Staverton,Halfpenny Green,Birmingham,Ringway,Speke,Blackpool,Humberside,Teeside etc etc.
Just about every decent airport was council owned.
All regular entries in my log book in those days and minimal landing fees.
I'm sure Haverfordwest is still council owned but in these cash strapped days how do you justify an airfield for the use of perceived wealthy weekend flyers? The truth is you cannot and so a developer offers a way out and some money for the council coffers.
All of the above fields had clubs and plenty of GA. In fact GA often made up the bulk of the movements at some of those places.
A decent motorhome costs about the same as a small secondhand spam can but offers a landowner a lot more return over a weekend than any flying visitor.
And of course there is less noise for the nimby's to complain about.
Sad but true I'm afraid.
I enjoy flying but as an investment....Not worth the hassle so forget it
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: sandown
Age: 35
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
as i understand from working here, once january the 24th comes it will be a residant only strip, and they will need to give the owner 48 hours notice to fly, also heard rumors the rent could be going up
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 4,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Phil
You are right of course in terms of the financial model.
The problem with everything having to pay for itself is you are left with little.
I suspect Council run sports centers dont pay for themselves and the only reason private Gyms do is they cater for very carefully selected activities. However we, as a society, still judge it to be a good thing to provide swimming pools, and running tracks even though they havent got a hope in hell of paying for themselves.
Utlimately society must decide whether it wishes to provide certain facilities to the community or not. The I of W is a very good example. All the time there is one airport I guess not unreasonably that is more than adequate for the island - but if Bembridge were to close - I wonder, would that be the time where the island would step in and protect the air field? In France most certainly they would - in England I am not so sure any longer.
As others have said of course these places can survive by operating on much lower overheads. Do we really need air ground, firemen, etc at most smaller airfields? However the danger is ever present that even with such economies the land represents a very poor return on capital employed IF it could be put to almost any other use. For that reason unless the land is protected in some way there will be the ever present threat of it being put to alternative use and the airfield lost for ever.
I hope they survive.
You are right of course in terms of the financial model.
The problem with everything having to pay for itself is you are left with little.
I suspect Council run sports centers dont pay for themselves and the only reason private Gyms do is they cater for very carefully selected activities. However we, as a society, still judge it to be a good thing to provide swimming pools, and running tracks even though they havent got a hope in hell of paying for themselves.
Utlimately society must decide whether it wishes to provide certain facilities to the community or not. The I of W is a very good example. All the time there is one airport I guess not unreasonably that is more than adequate for the island - but if Bembridge were to close - I wonder, would that be the time where the island would step in and protect the air field? In France most certainly they would - in England I am not so sure any longer.
As others have said of course these places can survive by operating on much lower overheads. Do we really need air ground, firemen, etc at most smaller airfields? However the danger is ever present that even with such economies the land represents a very poor return on capital employed IF it could be put to almost any other use. For that reason unless the land is protected in some way there will be the ever present threat of it being put to alternative use and the airfield lost for ever.
I hope they survive.
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 2,118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This sounds like a classic case for GAAC to become involved with. (Google it if not familiar)
Not sure if they are already on the case, or whether it is perhaps still early days to get then involved.
Not sure if they are already on the case, or whether it is perhaps still early days to get then involved.