Instrument IFR route (off airway)
How can UK SVFR allow access below normal VFR weather minima, when for UK one requires 10km / 3000m (if instrument qual held) vis for SVFR?
But even 3000m is "below normal VFR weather minima".
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This subject has got me reading up and improving my knowledge on this subject.
One thing I have found which is confusing me a bit is the requirements for filing a flight plan. One of them states IFR flight.
So on my understanding of that any IFR flight requires a flight plan to be filed? I prepare to be corrected
One thing I have found which is confusing me a bit is the requirements for filing a flight plan. One of them states IFR flight.
So on my understanding of that any IFR flight requires a flight plan to be filed? I prepare to be corrected
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So on my understanding of that any IFR flight requires a flight plan to be filed?
If you are referring to the UK, it isn't true that any IFR flight requires a flight plan. See ENR 1.10 in the UK AIP. IFR flight OCAS doesn't, and some IFR flight in CAS requires only an abbreviated flight plan obtained by telephone prior to take-off or by RT in flight.
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There is a vast difference in replies one is going to get here, according to which country (most people here are in the UK, but not all, and this needs to be absolutely understood otherwise some advice will be way off), and according to whether one is filing IFR within the UK, IFR for a trans-European flight, whether one has an IR, etc.
The OP (original poster) has to detail where he stands papers-wise, where he flies, and only then one can do a useful reply.
For example flying "IFR" in UK Class G (crudely speaking, getting airborne and drilling a hole in a cloud, which as it happens I have been doing tonight while renewing my FAA 3+3 night passenger currency) is completely different to flying "IFR" from UK to Germany.
The air is the same of course (though the national CAAs would differ on that one, because they invented air) but one flies under vastly different constraints due to ATC, airspace, procedures, etc.
Taking the "purest" form of IFR, international IFR is pretty similar to US IFR. The main differences are that the flight plan is ICAO rather than the very brief US national format, and some terminology differs. Then in Europe you have the bizzare Eurocontrol routing issues but there is a software tool for that now. Apart from these things, a US pilot will be able to fly in Europe OK.
The OP (original poster) has to detail where he stands papers-wise, where he flies, and only then one can do a useful reply.
For example flying "IFR" in UK Class G (crudely speaking, getting airborne and drilling a hole in a cloud, which as it happens I have been doing tonight while renewing my FAA 3+3 night passenger currency) is completely different to flying "IFR" from UK to Germany.
The air is the same of course (though the national CAAs would differ on that one, because they invented air) but one flies under vastly different constraints due to ATC, airspace, procedures, etc.
Taking the "purest" form of IFR, international IFR is pretty similar to US IFR. The main differences are that the flight plan is ICAO rather than the very brief US national format, and some terminology differs. Then in Europe you have the bizzare Eurocontrol routing issues but there is a software tool for that now. Apart from these things, a US pilot will be able to fly in Europe OK.
Last edited by IO540; 12th Dec 2009 at 19:38.
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Presumably it "has" to work that way otherwise somebody flying into the USA would not be able to.
The really big differences are in VFR flight. Europena pilots just cannot believe that in the USA one can fly VFR up to 17999ft (Class A base is 18000ft) and gets easy transits through most controlled airspace, etc. Class D transits are with just 2-way radio contact (no explicit clearance needed).
A US pilot (IR holder) who does an IFR flight in Europe will first hit the Eurocontrol routing system. After he has found a way through that, the flight is pretty well as he might expect. He does need to stick to reasonably high levels for it to work; in the USA this is formalised in the way the airway MEAs are shown on the chart but in Europe this is more vague.
The fun bit is if he cancels IFR; then he needs to know the airspace, and all the other stuff.
The really big differences are in VFR flight. Europena pilots just cannot believe that in the USA one can fly VFR up to 17999ft (Class A base is 18000ft) and gets easy transits through most controlled airspace, etc. Class D transits are with just 2-way radio contact (no explicit clearance needed).
A US pilot (IR holder) who does an IFR flight in Europe will first hit the Eurocontrol routing system. After he has found a way through that, the flight is pretty well as he might expect. He does need to stick to reasonably high levels for it to work; in the USA this is formalised in the way the airway MEAs are shown on the chart but in Europe this is more vague.
The fun bit is if he cancels IFR; then he needs to know the airspace, and all the other stuff.
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IFR in europe off airways
The vast majority of European FIRS allow off airway routing, so off airways, or IFR to airports not served by airways or nav-aids is no issue at all.
A friend of mine in Austria goes into eastern europe a lot where many FIRS don't allow off airway (CFMU REPLY: MAX DCT (0) NM IS EXCEEDED...) and he just files to a nearby IFR airport and then diverts when he gets close. Works great for him. He does the ZZZZ in the ADES when he can, but his backup is the above.
In Western Europe I have never found an airport I couldn't file to, although many airports are coded no IFR operations and you have to file a composite flight plan.
www.EuroFPL.eu is the magic for routing, as you can easily see from their 30,000 route validated database what the common routes are into and out of airports, as well as access the Eurocontrol auto-routing tool that was recently released. It makes Europe IFR route-finding as easy as USA. Free flight plan filing, routing, weather briefing, flight tracking and flight notifications. It is just too cool!
Travis Holland
A friend of mine in Austria goes into eastern europe a lot where many FIRS don't allow off airway (CFMU REPLY: MAX DCT (0) NM IS EXCEEDED...) and he just files to a nearby IFR airport and then diverts when he gets close. Works great for him. He does the ZZZZ in the ADES when he can, but his backup is the above.
In Western Europe I have never found an airport I couldn't file to, although many airports are coded no IFR operations and you have to file a composite flight plan.
www.EuroFPL.eu is the magic for routing, as you can easily see from their 30,000 route validated database what the common routes are into and out of airports, as well as access the Eurocontrol auto-routing tool that was recently released. It makes Europe IFR route-finding as easy as USA. Free flight plan filing, routing, weather briefing, flight tracking and flight notifications. It is just too cool!
Travis Holland
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StatorVane,
Yes. You simply file the flight plan as an IFR flight with your required routing. You will receive and ATC clearance from, for example London Control, via the FISO/AG at your local strip or you simply call to get the clearance if no ATS. The clearance will contain your initial routing, altitude and contact frequency on departure. Once you have established contact after departure you're off. When you arrive at your destination, if you are under radar control, ATC will vector you and request you report visual, if not visual they will continue to vector you to your alternate or re-sequence you. If visual you will be handed over or cleared own navigation. If there is nobody to hand you over to you'll probably be given an appropriate FIS frequency.
I'm not sure how complex you can get before the flight plan is rejected. The UK AIS publishes a standard routing document which shows the preferred routing to and from ATS airfields that join/depart airways. The ICAO flight plan provides the means to specify radials and distances from navaids, etc and I have certainly done this, but the routing remained simple and didn't not mix'n'match airways. Personally I would keep the complexity in the flight plan to a minimum and either stick to airways or offroute (one or the other) and then ask for appropriate shortcuts when in the air.
Fortunately I did my IR from a non-instrument airfield which meant many IFR flights beginning and ending with visual departures and arrivals with off airway IFR flights. I'm now based in Asia and I also ferry company aircraft to our maintenance facility in Singapore which is a VFR airfield, the procedure out here is no different from what I experienced in the UK.
Under standard ICAO procedures is it certainly possible to fly under IFR to airports not serviced by navaids or situated on or nearby airways? For example, could we take off in VFR from our private strip and fly to another private strip when a proportion of the flight will be in IMC? If so, how would this be filed with ATC - would we just put in a direct route or would we need to plan to use the airways system.
If the airways system takes us on an inefficient route can we mix and match those portions that would be useful and are we allowed to "create" our own waypoints (GPS or VOR/DME) and use these in the plan?
I have not flown for years and believe it or not I have an FAA IR and should be able to answer all these questions myself but I'm ashamed to say I can't. Perhaps you guys would be obliging as I'm on a mission to retrain and get back into the air!
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Hi Guys,
Thanks for the response, I have found this very useful. Just to state my position I was generally talking about the UK system and I appreciate there are differences levied by different states.
When I wrote this I had in mind a number of scenarios. One, as I mentioned, was private site to private site where some part of the flight encountered IMC. The Class G airspace thing has answered that.
Could I give you another random scenario? If I said we'll fly from EGBM (Tatenhill) to EGTP (Peranporth) and mostly under IMC/IFR could anyone talk me through how you would approach the planning and chosen routing under IFR? In particular:
Many thanks guys. I appreciate this becoming a lesson in its own right but I'm finding this very useful and despite dusting off several "instrument" books I jsut haven't got my answers. By the way, can anyone recommend a good read on this theme, with scenarios? Perhaps I've already asked enough for one post...?
Thanks for the response, I have found this very useful. Just to state my position I was generally talking about the UK system and I appreciate there are differences levied by different states.
When I wrote this I had in mind a number of scenarios. One, as I mentioned, was private site to private site where some part of the flight encountered IMC. The Class G airspace thing has answered that.
Could I give you another random scenario? If I said we'll fly from EGBM (Tatenhill) to EGTP (Peranporth) and mostly under IMC/IFR could anyone talk me through how you would approach the planning and chosen routing under IFR? In particular:
- would you utilize airways (none apparently useful)?
- would you route direct (maybe throw a waypoint in to steer around Bristol)?
- how would you handle the final stages around Newquay (avoid or go through)?
- Would you file a flightplan beforehand or whilst airborne?
Many thanks guys. I appreciate this becoming a lesson in its own right but I'm finding this very useful and despite dusting off several "instrument" books I jsut haven't got my answers. By the way, can anyone recommend a good read on this theme, with scenarios? Perhaps I've already asked enough for one post...?
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As with nearly all flights around the UK, you can fly that in Class G, non-radio. There is no need to complicate it any further 
Just draw it on the VFR chart and fly it with a GPS; that's what I've been doing since I got my PPL and I haven't hit anything yet.
For backup, plan the route on navaids so you have a backup for the GPS. Or, if VMC and sight of surface is assured, you can practice goode olde map reading (the Brits beat the Germans with that in WW1 and did it again in WW2 so it has to be good).
If you want to transit a bit of Class D, call up the frequency shown on the chart for a transit, say 20nm/10mins before you get to the boundary. A lot of the time they will let you but sometimes they won't so you need a Plan B which is a dogleg
If you want to do it as a Eurocontrol IFR (called "airways" by many) flight, generally in controlled airspace which in the UK will generally be Class A, then you need this FPP routing tool and have a play. Without this, it gets awfully messy because you have to dig out the standard route documents and build a lot of understanding of the system, and the resulting routes will be hugely sub-optimal in distance terms.
If you post a pair of ICAO airport identifiers, people here can have a go at different routes.
I use FPP with a min level of F100, max of F180, and preferred of F140. That gives the best routings around Europe, generally. There are cases where setting the min to F070-090 gives a better result in some places. Above F140 there is no improvement anywhere except the Alps and similar - until you get to F200 (upper airways) but you need a place actually capable of flying up there; I can do F200 but not fuel efficiently. It is readily apparent that oxygen is handy...
The Eurocontrol routings work less than well at sub-oxygen levels, but the bigger issue is that at most airway MEAs you will be in IMC if there is any IMC, and much of the year the temp will be below 0C, so the name of the game is to climb above it and fly the enroute bit in sunshine.
Just draw it on the VFR chart and fly it with a GPS; that's what I've been doing since I got my PPL and I haven't hit anything yet.
For backup, plan the route on navaids so you have a backup for the GPS. Or, if VMC and sight of surface is assured, you can practice goode olde map reading (the Brits beat the Germans with that in WW1 and did it again in WW2 so it has to be good).
If you want to transit a bit of Class D, call up the frequency shown on the chart for a transit, say 20nm/10mins before you get to the boundary. A lot of the time they will let you but sometimes they won't so you need a Plan B which is a dogleg
If you want to do it as a Eurocontrol IFR (called "airways" by many) flight, generally in controlled airspace which in the UK will generally be Class A, then you need this FPP routing tool and have a play. Without this, it gets awfully messy because you have to dig out the standard route documents and build a lot of understanding of the system, and the resulting routes will be hugely sub-optimal in distance terms.
If you post a pair of ICAO airport identifiers, people here can have a go at different routes.
I use FPP with a min level of F100, max of F180, and preferred of F140. That gives the best routings around Europe, generally. There are cases where setting the min to F070-090 gives a better result in some places. Above F140 there is no improvement anywhere except the Alps and similar - until you get to F200 (upper airways) but you need a place actually capable of flying up there; I can do F200 but not fuel efficiently. It is readily apparent that oxygen is handy...
The Eurocontrol routings work less than well at sub-oxygen levels, but the bigger issue is that at most airway MEAs you will be in IMC if there is any IMC, and much of the year the temp will be below 0C, so the name of the game is to climb above it and fly the enroute bit in sunshine.
Last edited by IO540; 17th Dec 2009 at 08:29.
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I generally plan to VOR-hop using GPS as the main tool but tuning in the beacons as a backup in case the GPS fails (very rare but it has happened). Occasionally I include an NDB as a backup though they are pretty much useless.
Not sure exactly how I'm going to do that when they turn off most of the VORs, but there you go...
As IO540 has said you want to plan to transit class D but have a plan B in case of refusal. Don't forget you can often go higher (icing permitting) to avoid class D rather than going round - I sometimes go over the Brize zone, for example, though they rarely refuse a transit.
Tim
(edited to add - our club rules require a radar service at all times when IMC, though that isn't always feasible if you are on one and get dumped to a new frequency who won't provide. But it's a good policy to aim for.)
Not sure exactly how I'm going to do that when they turn off most of the VORs, but there you go...
As IO540 has said you want to plan to transit class D but have a plan B in case of refusal. Don't forget you can often go higher (icing permitting) to avoid class D rather than going round - I sometimes go over the Brize zone, for example, though they rarely refuse a transit.
Tim
(edited to add - our club rules require a radar service at all times when IMC, though that isn't always feasible if you are on one and get dumped to a new frequency who won't provide. But it's a good policy to aim for.)
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our club rules require a radar service at all times when IMC
There are no known collisions in UK airspace in IMC, since WW2.
Actually IMHO this is an appalling and ridiculous restriction which if really obeyed would make Class G IFR flight around the UK impractical. Most of the time in the UK one either cannot get a radar service, or the one which one does get is useless "due to controller workload". And even at the best of times some traffic is not reported. Most people think that a TS amounts to a formal radar separation but it's nothing of the sort; it is at the controller's discretion whether to make the call or not. And to top it all, the majority of reported traffic is nontransponding so nobody knows where (vertically) to look for it (but when one does spot it it is usually way down below).
Last edited by IO540; 18th Dec 2009 at 12:51.
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IO540,
It seems sensible airmanship to use whatever radar service is available. I always do so where possible even if I then treat the efficacy of the service with guarded suspicion.
It's becoming more difficult to obtain though.... the UK LARS system is gradually being disbanded by stealth.
It seems sensible airmanship to use whatever radar service is available. I always do so where possible even if I then treat the efficacy of the service with guarded suspicion.
It's becoming more difficult to obtain though.... the UK LARS system is gradually being disbanded by stealth.
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I agree; I always call up a radar service.
What I didn't get is a club rule which bans IMC without one. If I was flying alone I would obviously ignore such a rule, but if flying with a passenger, somebody might spill the beans and I might be risking eviction. That rule is totally nuts; imagine an instrument rated pilot, flying in IMC, and having his RS terminated. What is he supposed to do??? It's bonkers.
From a mid-air risk management POV a better (and equally hilarious) rule would be to ban flight on any sunny Sunday that was preceeded by 1 week or more of non-VFR weather, to any non-ATC airfield In fact I would just ban all flight to Wellesbourne and Stapleford at weekends
Much more sensibly though, banning enroute flight below 1500ft would, on the basis of UK VMC midair data, virtually eliminate the enroute risk. That is what I do.
What I didn't get is a club rule which bans IMC without one. If I was flying alone I would obviously ignore such a rule, but if flying with a passenger, somebody might spill the beans and I might be risking eviction. That rule is totally nuts; imagine an instrument rated pilot, flying in IMC, and having his RS terminated. What is he supposed to do??? It's bonkers.
From a mid-air risk management POV a better (and equally hilarious) rule would be to ban flight on any sunny Sunday that was preceeded by 1 week or more of non-VFR weather, to any non-ATC airfield
In fact I would just ban all flight to Wellesbourne and Stapleford at weekends Much more sensibly though, banning enroute flight below 1500ft would, on the basis of UK VMC midair data, virtually eliminate the enroute risk. That is what I do.
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Could I give you another random scenario? If I said we'll fly from EGBM (Tatenhill) to EGTP (Peranporth) and mostly under IMC/IFR could anyone talk me through how you would approach the planning and chosen routing under IFR? In particular:
•would you utilize airways (none apparently useful)?
•would you utilize airways (none apparently useful)?
•would you route direct (maybe throw a waypoint in to steer around Bristol)?
•how would you handle the final stages around Newquay (avoid or go through)?
•Would you file a flightplan beforehand or whilst airborne?
Finally, and possibly a very silly question, if ATC come back with a routing which is not what we asked for, and furthermore rendered the flight "inefficient" from our point of view and not worth doing can we renegotiate or re-file?
Top tip though - you get routes within that type of airspace for a reason, and if you try re-negociating over the R/T, especially within a busy environment, you might just find yourself leaving that airspace just to get you out of ATC's hair.
By the way, can anyone recommend a good read on this theme, with scenarios? Perhaps I've already asked enough for one post...?
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I have to admit to treating it as an 'aspiration' in New Labour speak... i.e. I will always ask for a radar service and wouldn't depart into IMC without one (but then the home field will provide it :-) ) but if I get dumped en route and can't get a radar service I don't immediately declare a Mayday!
In that respect the rule is a bit meaningless.
Tim
In that respect the rule is a bit meaningless.
Tim
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A quick piece of advice, slightly contrary to other answers here. One very fraught flight (the police put a TRA on the airspace I needed just before I took off; I was informed at the threshold) when I was inexperienced in joining the airways out of an uncontrolled airfield I called London Information for clearance. It took a while which was a real nuisance. London Control said I would have been better to call the nearest LARS unit (airfield ATS offering a radar service), they would have obtained my clearance more quickly. If you are unsure you could even phone the nearest LARS airfield beforehand to ask them what they expect, air-traffic assistants are generally helpful.
In France and Germany I have found that the radio operator will generally pass on a message from the nearest radar unit with departure instructions, squawk and frequency.
In France and Germany I have found that the radio operator will generally pass on a message from the nearest radar unit with departure instructions, squawk and frequency.
