Right - here we go. NPPL

[gpn01]

Originally Posted by cats_five

Spinning isn't necessarily compulsory before going solo in gliders - it depends on what type of 2-seat glider you fly, and where. My club has K21s and I know several folks who have gone solo without spinning

Really ? I'm pretty sure that a K-21, like any other glider, can and will spin. It may take a convoluted set of circumstances (light pilot, flown solo, wet/iced wings, gusty conditions). So, never believe anyone that says that a design can't spin. Oh, and an additional problem is that anything that doesn't spin very easily probably won't recover very easily either.

Spinning exercises are included on the BGA progress cards. I can presume only that your club instructors and CFI are exceedingly confident that early solo pilots who haven't completed spin training are still able to recognise the symptoms and recover before a spin develops. I'd be curious how they'd cope if they visit another club and need a site check (which'll often include an impromptu set of spin exercises)!

[flybymike]

there are plenty of microlights in which "stick forwards" makes the cows get bigger.

And on these types stick too far back also makes cows get bigger.

[liam548]

afaik spinning is optional in the NPPL just like the PPL and even CPL.

How to avoid spins is what is taught now....

[cats_five]

Originally Posted by gpn01

Really ? I'm pretty sure that a K-21, like any other glider, can and will spin. It may take a convoluted set of circumstances (light pilot, flown solo, wet/iced wings, gusty conditions). So, never believe anyone that says that a design can't spin. Oh, and an additional problem is that anything that doesn't spin very easily probably won't recover very easily either.

Spinning exercises are included on the BGA progress cards. I can presume only that your club instructors and CFI are exceedingly confident that early solo pilots who haven't completed spin training are still able to recognise the symptoms and recover before a spin develops. I'd be curious how they'd cope if they visit another club and need a site check (which'll often include an impromptu set of spin exercises)!

I agree that almost any glider (plane) can be provoked into spinning. However, does anyone know of a K21 accident involving spinning? I mean know in that there is something other than 'fred knows joe who knows john who knows....' kind of knowledge. I can't find one in the BGA accident database.

I'd also point out that stalling exercises are on the pre-solo cards as well, and if a pilot can correctly identify getting close to the stall and fix it they are not going to spin. So, do we know of any accidents with very early solo pilots involving a stall in a K21? (again, I don't mean hearsay knowledge)

The one spinning accident I've got proper knowledge of (the P2 who was not doing the flying at the time told me) was a K13 spun low down by the P1 who had 'get-back-to-the-launch-point-itis'. Luckily they spun into something soft.

[Whiskey Kilo Wanderer]

The NPPL(M) route

Hi Chris 68,

Most people, particularly on here, will advise strongly against paying up front. With two schools going to the wall you know why. If possible, make sure you get your training notes (the stuff the instructors put in your training file, plus the record of any ground examination passes) from the two schools you have used.

I suspect the cheapest way to progress is NPPL(M) and then NPPL(SSEA), depending on how many of your family you want to take flying at the same time. Three axis microlights come in a wide variety of flavors, from simple AX3 types up to some very fancy (read expensive) hot ships. You may find that the NPPL(M) allows you to do everything you want. It has the advantage of being a lifetime licence, so unlike the JAR / EASA PPL it doesn't have to be renewed every five years. You also have the advantage of the Medical Declaration, rather than the JAR Class 2 Medical, which also saves you money from your flying budget.

Once you have a licence, you will find out which aspects appeal to you most. It may be touring, fly-ins like yesterday's New Year's Day Fly-In at Popham or aerobatics (not usually in microlights). You can then choose the training and aircraft that suits your needs.

Which ever way you choose to go, good luck with your studies.

Happy New Year & Safe Flying.

Richard W.

[gpn01]

@ Cats_Five - I've flown with enough students who have inadvertantly stalled a K-21. Some of them have needed prompting to recover and one therefore wonders what would have happened if I wasn't in the backseat. Ok, they were pre-solo and so it was a useful reinforcement exercise but I hope that the point is clear...pilots can and do stall gliders (and the K-21 is no exception). As for whether the K-21 can/does spin...I'd suggest re-reading the K-21 Flight Manual about an unusual situation which may cause it to spin! I reiterate my previous point too - gliders such as the K-21 are very spin resistant but given the right circumstances they will. The fact that there don't appear to be any spin recovery failure accidents on the BGA database is good but I don't know if this is the case for every other country.

[chris 68]

thankyou Whiskey Kilo Wanderer

that was very helpfull,what im trying to find out is whats required to convert from nppl(m) to ppl (a)

either way i found your replay a great help thanks again

chris

[cats_five]

Not only are there no K21 spinning accidents in the BGA database, there are no stall ones either. That an ab initio can inadvertantly stall a glider - any glider - suggests to me that that particular ab initio is nowhere near ready to go solo, in any glider.

But as you say, are there any recorded spin accidents in a K21 in other countries, or come to that stall accidents? (actually if you include mis-handled winch launch failures there are probably some of the later, but I doubt that spin training would affect the outcome)

[gpn01]

Originally Posted by cats_five

Not only are there no K21 spinning accidents in the BGA database, there are no stall ones either. That an ab initio can inadvertantly stall a glider - any glider - suggests to me that that particular ab initio is nowhere near ready to go solo, in any glider.

But as you say, are there any recorded spin accidents in a K21 in other countries, or come to that stall accidents? (actually if you include mis-handled winch launch failures there are probably some of the later, but I doubt that spin training would affect the outcome)

So, have you never unintentionally stalled a glider yourself post-solo? I'll admit that I have (in both erect and incerted flight) but I recovered to normal flight and wouldn't consider the events notifiable.

Stalling and spinning INCIDENTS don't appear in the BGA database, it's only when there hasn't been the appropriate corrective action applied in time and an event has turned into an ACCIDENT that it is registered. Therefore, going back to the original point of my post, K-21s can spin. All because people claim that they can't, and that there's no recorded accidents as a consequence of a failure to recover, does not make the glider unspinnable.

[cats_five]

Originally Posted by gpn01

So, have you never unintentionally stalled a glider yourself post-solo? I'll admit that I have (in both erect and incerted flight) but I recovered to normal flight and wouldn't consider the events notifiable.

Stalling and spinning INCIDENTS don't appear in the BGA database, it's only when there hasn't been the appropriate corrective action applied in time and an event has turned into an ACCIDENT that it is registered. Therefore, going back to the original point of my post, K-21s can spin. All because people claim that they can't, and that there's no recorded accidents as a consequence of a failure to recover, does not make the glider unspinnable.

Funnily enough no, I've never unintentionally stalled either pre- or post-solo. When I got my own glider it suddenly went rather quiet during my first soring flight, a bit of stick forward and all was well and has been ever since.

Yes, K21s can spin, but the accident evidence seems to be that it's a remarkable event and the flight manual makes it clear it's unlikely unless you are flying a single pilot near the bottom end of the weight limits - in which case a ballast weight (or two) is probably called for.

I'm sure my club will continue it's policy of allowing people to go solo in the K21 without spinning, and I'm equally sure it will continue it's policy of not allowing them in a single-seater until they have demonstrated they can recover from a spin. I am told we have a remarkably good safety record.

[Whiskey Kilo Wanderer]

Nppl(m) -> Nppl(ssea) -> Jar-fcl Ppl(a)

Hi Chris,

Basically you are looking at a two stage process:

NPPL(Microlight) -> NPPL(Simple Single Engined Aircraft) -> JAR-FCL PPL(A)

Although as stated earlier, there is not much benefit in going from NPPL(SSEA) to JAR-FCL PPL(A). LASORS is your friend for all this sort of stuff. You can get a free down-load .PDF (75Mb) of the document from the CAA website, which saves buying it.
LASOSR view / down-load

Section 6 refers to the NPPL, with Section C6.3 giving the details for the NPPL(M) licence.

Look at the NPPL website and check Section 2.1 - Cross Crediting for NPPL(M) to NPPL(SSEA)
NPPL Cross Crediting Document

Now jump back to LASORS Section C6.2 for a subsection on Upgrading to JAR-FCL PPL(A)

LASORS isn't exactly good bed time reading, but combined with the NPPL website stuff, it will answer your questions.

Good luck & Safe Flying,
Richard W.

[gpn01]

Originally Posted by cats_five

Funnily enough no, I've never unintentionally stalled either pre- or post-solo. When I got my own glider it suddenly went rather quiet during my first soring flight, a bit of stick forward and all was well and has been ever since.

So, you've never unintentionally stalled, although it appears you've managed to recognise, and recover from exactly such a situation? H'mmm. In fairness to you, it's also possible that you've not flown the glider anywhere near to its limits or in rough conditions, in which case I accept entirely that you've never inadvertantly stalled a glider.

Originally Posted by cats_five

Yes, K21s can spin, but the accident evidence seems to be that it's a remarkable event and the flight manual makes it clear it's unlikely unless you are flying a single pilot near the bottom end of the weight limits - in which case a ballast weight (or two) is probably called for.

It seems then that we have different copies of the K-21 Flight Manual. Could you recheck Section III.4 of yours (wing dropping and how a spin can ensue) and let me know which section refers to the single pilot, etc. that you refer to?

Originally Posted by cats_five

I'm sure my club will continue it's policy of allowing people to go solo in the K21 without spinning, and I'm equally sure it will continue it's policy of not allowing them in a single-seater until they have demonstrated they can recover from a spin. I am told we have a remarkably good safety record.

I hope that the good safety record continues. I can presume that it's not a BGA affiliated club though as part of the BGA syllabus (exercise 19) is spin recogntition and recovery. Aagain, I restate my concern about how your pilots are declared fit for solo and could then go visit other clubs with gliders that don't have such benign characteristics.

[cats_five]

Originally Posted by gpn01

So, you've never unintentionally stalled, although it appears you've managed to recognise, and recover from exactly such a situation? H'mmm. In fairness to you, it's also possible that you've not flown the glider anywhere near to its limits or in rough conditions, in which case I accept entirely that you've never inadvertantly stalled a glider.


It seems then that we have different copies of the K-21 Flight Manual. Could you recheck Section III.4 of yours (wing dropping and how a spin can ensue) and let me know which section refers to the single pilot, etc. that you refer to?


I hope that the good safety record continues. I can presume that it's not a BGA affiliated club though as part of the BGA syllabus (exercise 19) is spin recogntition and recovery. Aagain, I restate my concern about how your pilots are declared fit for solo and could then go visit other clubs with gliders that don't have such benign characteristics.

The condition I recognised and dealt with was not a stall, it was pre-stall. (see the very first part of exercise 18 in the BGA syllabus) Stick forward a tad was all that was required. Had I done nothing the glider would have stalled and quite likely spun, but things never got that out of hand. I do fly in rough conditions, but was not allowed to do so on my own when an early solo pilot. Have I flown my glider to it's limits? How do you define that?

Yes, it's a BGA affiliated club. A few people are deemed ready for solo except they've not been able to do spin training (weather). Some of them get sent solo, but have to do spinning ASAP and certainly before flying the single-seaters. We also have a system that makes sure that early solo pilots have to do plenty of check flights. And yes, I agree that the BGA syllabus as published on the website implies that glider pilots should have been spin-trained before first solo.
http://www.gliding.co.uk/forms/Syllabusv4June08.pdf


http://skylinesoaring.org/docs/Flight_Manual_ASK-21.pdf
Section IV.6 of the above on-line flight refers to pilot weights and where the CoG is in relation to the datum. Section III.4 refers to dealing with a wing drop in turbulence - stick forward, rudder against any turn.

But - would you send someone on their first solo in anything but very benign conditions? No. Would you send a very early solo pilot off in turbulent conditions? No. Would you send someone who has not done spin training off in conditions that could provoke a wing-drop in a K21? No. Would you expect an early solo pilot to fly a glider 'to it's limits'? No.

What would your club (assuming you fly gliders) do if someone from another club turned up wanting to fly? At mine after the administrative stuff their training cards and log books would be checked by the duty instructor, they would have to do check flights, and if they were that early a solo I doubt they would get to fly solo regardless of the conditions.

Even if they turn up with three Diamonds and a big posh glider of their own, their log book is checked and if there is anything to give any doubts they have to do check flights. Hopefully your club has a similar system.

[chris 68]

Hi Chris,

Basically you are looking at a two stage process:

NPPL(Microlight) -> NPPL(Simple Single Engined Aircraft) -> JAR-FCL PPL(A)

Although as stated earlier, there is not much benefit in going from NPPL(SSEA) to JAR-FCL PPL(A). LASORS is your friend for all this sort of stuff. You can get a free down-load .PDF (75Mb) of the document from the CAA website, which saves buying it.
LASOSR view / down-load

Section 6 refers to the NPPL, with Section C6.3 giving the details for the NPPL(M) licence.

Look at the NPPL website and check Section 2.1 - Cross Crediting for NPPL(M) to NPPL(SSEA)
NPPL Cross Crediting Document

Now jump back to LASORS Section C6.2 for a subsection on Upgrading to JAR-FCL PPL(A)

LASORS isn't exactly good bed time reading, but combined with the NPPL website stuff, it will answer your questions.

Good luck & Safe Flying,
Richard W.


thank you again was very helpfull

chris

[gpn01]

Originally Posted by cats_five

Have I flown my glider to it's limits? How do you define that?

Go through the flight envelope and, with appropriate supervision (and plenty of height!) take a look at the glider's behaviour towards the boundaries - e.g. low speed handling, changing effect of controls, high speed stalls, inverted flight, etc. A great way of learning more about how the glider feels at different speeds, G-loadings, etc.

Originally Posted by cats_five

Have I flown my glider to it's limits? How do you define that?
Some of them get sent solo, but have to do spinning ASAP and certainly before flying the single-seaters. We also have a system that makes sure that early solo pilots have to do plenty of check flights. And yes, I agree that the BGA syllabus as published on the website implies that glider pilots should have been spin-trained before first solo.
http://www.gliding.co.uk/forms/Syllabusv4June08.pdf

Interesting that the instructors recognise the need for spin recognition, avoidance and recovery but don't deem it mandatory before solo - presume some form of risk assessment has been done and they've judged that the odds of an early solo pilot coming a cropper before they've been fully trained are low enough.

Originally Posted by cats_five

http://skylinesoaring.org/docs/Flight_Manual_ASK-21.pdf
Section IV.6 of the above on-line flight refers to pilot weights and where the CoG is in relation to the datum. Section III.4 refers to dealing with a wing drop in turbulence - stick forward, rudder against any turn.

Good call on the quote - fair point. However, both sections refer to how incorrect action can lead to a spin developing (irrespective of C.G.position). Remember too that the manual relates to fairly optimal circumstances and doesn't generally consider things like additional drag on the wings due to dirty, wet or icy wings.

Originally Posted by cats_five

What would your club (assuming you fly gliders) do if someone from another club turned up wanting to fly? At mine after the administrative stuff their training cards and log books would be checked by the duty instructor, they would have to do check flights, and if they were that early a solo I doubt they would get to fly solo regardless of the conditions.

Even if they turn up with three Diamonds and a big posh glider of their own, their log book is checked and if there is anything to give any doubts they have to do check flights. Hopefully your club has a similar system.

Club's I've visited in the UK tend to have a process along the lines of: Fill in paperwork; show evidence of medical declaration (if needed); show logbook to duty instructor; instructor ignores logbook; go fly with instructor and show that you're safe and can handle the local site and conditions. I don't think my local club is any different.

[cats_five]

Originally Posted by gpn01

Interesting that the instructors recognise the need for spin recognition, avoidance and recovery but don't deem it mandatory before solo - presume some form of risk assessment has been done and they've judged that the odds of an early solo pilot coming a cropper before they've been fully trained are low enough.

Good call on the quote - fair point. However, both sections refer to how incorrect action can lead to a spin developing (irrespective of C.G.position). Remember too that the manual relates to fairly optimal circumstances and doesn't generally consider things like additional drag on the wings due to dirty, wet or icy wings.

Our early solo pilots are very, very carefully looked after. Before each flight the instructor will be assessing them and the conditions, and we have nearly all had the experience of turning up on a day when we don't get to fly on our own.

WRT wet / icy wings - do you think any pilot should set off with wet or icy wings? No. We are very careful about that. And the duty instructor will make sure an early solo pilot doesn't set off into rain / icing conditions, or of course into conditions that are too turbulent for their level of experience.

And when has a glider pilot ever been 'fully trained'? For EASA purposes, the equivalent for a PPL/NPPL has been deemed to be Bronze plus XC Endorsement, but really that's just another beginning for anyone with any ambition to do more than stooge around in local lift.

[gpn01]

Originally Posted by cats_five

WRT wet / icy wings - do you think any pilot should set off with wet or icy wings? No. We are very careful about that. And the duty instructor will make sure an early solo pilot doesn't set off into rain / icing conditions, or of course into conditions that are too turbulent for their level of experience.

I agree that pilots shouldn't launch with wet or icy wings. However I've seen plenty of gliders land with them. Flying near Cumulus can be enough to experience both. Don't know what the conditions at your site are like but I've flown at clubs wheer the weather changes very quickly.

Originally Posted by cats_five

And when has a glider pilot ever been 'fully trained'? For EASA purposes, the equivalent for a PPL/NPPL has been deemed to be Bronze plus XC Endorsement, but really that's just another beginning for anyone with any ambition to do more than stooge around in local lift.

Agree - I have very limited experience compared to some glider pilots and am always keen to learn more.

[cats_five]

I say again, going solo without spin training where I fly is really a very transitory thing, not a state of affairs that is allowed to persist, and all very early solo pilots are looked after very, very carefully.

Their first solo will be a circuit - no more - and for some time the new solo pilot will not fly (at my club) without a check flight beforehand, so the instructor will have a good idea if icing / rain during flight is likely to be a problem.

By the time someone will be allowed to fly when there things might happen to them in the air they should have got their spin training done and also be a somewhat more experienced pilot.