Confused on PPL night rating!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 42
Posts: 79
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Confused on PPL night rating!
Greetings folks,
I am in the process of almost completing my PPL and my instructor adviced me to undertake a PPL night rating as it all goes towards hour building anyway in order to achieve your fATPL/CPL.
Has anyone completed a night rating, if so would you recommend me to undertake this extra privilege as my instructor is trying to sell the idea to me but for obvious reasons I should not entirely take his word!
Many thanks once again
I am in the process of almost completing my PPL and my instructor adviced me to undertake a PPL night rating as it all goes towards hour building anyway in order to achieve your fATPL/CPL.
Has anyone completed a night rating, if so would you recommend me to undertake this extra privilege as my instructor is trying to sell the idea to me but for obvious reasons I should not entirely take his word!
Many thanks once again
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Derby
Age: 45
Posts: 339
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It won't
count as Pilot in Command time.
It will count as dual time.
You need 100 Pilot in Command time and if memory is right then you also need dual time of 150.
You need the night Qualification anyway as you can't proceed towards an IR without it.
1/60
It will count as dual time.
You need 100 Pilot in Command time and if memory is right then you also need dual time of 150.
You need the night Qualification anyway as you can't proceed towards an IR without it.
1/60
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Scotland
Posts: 489
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would advise getting it done as your instructor is doing. If you achieve your PPL in the winter and you want to fly then you have the Night Qual as a back-up should you get back a bit late. Also it is a fantastic experience, people will tell you not to do it as it's dangerous, some will tell you it's fine. There's inherent dangers with all flying so do your own risk assessment based upon your own personal circumstance.
Personally I would think twice about purposely flying a single at night now, but that's only because I have children.
Anyway, you need the qualification, so you may as well do it, and you do get some PIC time when you do your solo circuits. The whole thing is only 5hrs anyway. Do it, and enjoy it
There was a thread running some time ago over on Private Flying, do a search.
CC
Personally I would think twice about purposely flying a single at night now, but that's only because I have children.
Anyway, you need the qualification, so you may as well do it, and you do get some PIC time when you do your solo circuits. The whole thing is only 5hrs anyway. Do it, and enjoy it
There was a thread running some time ago over on Private Flying, do a search.
CC
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would agree with the rest.
Also night flying is a pain in the UK. No doud't you will be going of to do some hour building in the states, do the training over there it is alot more pleasant cheaper and safer than doing it in the UK. You only have to do the ICAO training for night you don't have to have it issued for the IR.
You better check that though things might have changed since I went through they system. Personally I did it as part of my 45 hours PPL.
All instructors at the moment are on a maximise their income operation. They and the school just want your money.
Also night flying is a pain in the UK. No doud't you will be going of to do some hour building in the states, do the training over there it is alot more pleasant cheaper and safer than doing it in the UK. You only have to do the ICAO training for night you don't have to have it issued for the IR.
You better check that though things might have changed since I went through they system. Personally I did it as part of my 45 hours PPL.
All instructors at the moment are on a maximise their income operation. They and the school just want your money.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Cornwall
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Do it now... or you might have to wait til next winter because not many airfields stay open till 23:000 in summer
I've had 3 lessons in a row cancelled now due to bad weather. I've got 3 next week to finisdh off but so far its beating day flying
I've had 3 lessons in a row cancelled now due to bad weather. I've got 3 next week to finisdh off but so far its beating day flying
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere In The South China Sea
Posts: 960
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
mad_jock
Safer in the States rather than the UK? Got any statistics to back up that claim?
As far as I remember you only need the NQ for CPL issue, check LASORS.
As far as I remember you only need the NQ for CPL issue, check LASORS.
Last edited by Deano777; 27th Nov 2009 at 09:56.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: France & UK
Age: 40
Posts: 303
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Get it done now, as you would need to pay an extra £84 to have it added to your PPL (like i am about to do 
)
Done 2.5 hours two days ago and another 2.5 hours tonight so will have it completed, the QUALIFICATION is a right hoot.
Go for it!!
VFR
)Done 2.5 hours two days ago and another 2.5 hours tonight so will have it completed, the QUALIFICATION is a right hoot.
Go for it!!
VFR
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Up in the clouds
Posts: 161
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ive started doing it and its very good! Its nice to see the world from a different perspective and as previously mentioned its a good back up if you get caught out and get home late!
Its not so good when you have just taken off and your panel lights decide to quit! Happened to me! Its amazing how much you learn in a quick time....!
Its not so good when you have just taken off and your panel lights decide to quit! Happened to me! Its amazing how much you learn in a quick time....!
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 4,598
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How far along are you with your PPL? Have you met the minimum requirements of 25 dual/45 total already?
Doing your NQ as part of your PPL training has the advantage of counting towards the 25/45 hours PPL requirements as well as counting towards the NQ requirements. And if you have all the required night hours and solo take-offs and landings before you send the PPL exam paperwork to the CAA, it doesn't cost anything extra to get the NQ added to your license.
On the way to an ATPL you're going to need an NQ anyway, whether that's for CPL or IR is irrelevant. Might as well do it as part of a bigger program, so that it doesn't cost anything extra. And you might want to do it when it gets dark at five, so you have long hours of darkness before the airports close and your body wants to go to sleep. Although I would advise you to wait a month or so, when winter is properly here. Calmer and more importantly, more predictable weather.
Doing your NQ as part of your PPL training has the advantage of counting towards the 25/45 hours PPL requirements as well as counting towards the NQ requirements. And if you have all the required night hours and solo take-offs and landings before you send the PPL exam paperwork to the CAA, it doesn't cost anything extra to get the NQ added to your license.
On the way to an ATPL you're going to need an NQ anyway, whether that's for CPL or IR is irrelevant. Might as well do it as part of a bigger program, so that it doesn't cost anything extra. And you might want to do it when it gets dark at five, so you have long hours of darkness before the airports close and your body wants to go to sleep. Although I would advise you to wait a month or so, when winter is properly here. Calmer and more importantly, more predictable weather.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: On the move
Posts: 940
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would recomend getting it down now , you are busy with PPL so have been doing circuits and the training is still fresh , you will have to pay extra to add i to your licence and you can use these hours towards you PPL . The sun does set rather early in the winter so that is a added bonus.
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nope no facts apart from the fact that you have multiple airfields all with pilot controlled lighting virtually every 20 miles if not less up and down the FL east coast.
Added to the fact that when I taught NQ's the previous year a student and instructor had ditched and even though they were 50 miles away from a SAR base next to an easy location point the student drowned. If you have a engine failure at night in the UK you are very likely not live to tell the tale.
But then again maybe I am just a big girls blouse a couple of thousand hours flying around the Highlands of Scotland be it in rain, sleet, snow and up to 90knts of wind. The risk is unacceptable for me now in a SEP. But then again I am not wondering if I can afford to eat on a FI wages and I have a bit more experience of operating at night than your average blind leading the blind FI who maybe has 20 hours if your lucky operating at night.
Added to the fact that when I taught NQ's the previous year a student and instructor had ditched and even though they were 50 miles away from a SAR base next to an easy location point the student drowned. If you have a engine failure at night in the UK you are very likely not live to tell the tale.
But then again maybe I am just a big girls blouse a couple of thousand hours flying around the Highlands of Scotland be it in rain, sleet, snow and up to 90knts of wind. The risk is unacceptable for me now in a SEP. But then again I am not wondering if I can afford to eat on a FI wages and I have a bit more experience of operating at night than your average blind leading the blind FI who maybe has 20 hours if your lucky operating at night.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: UK, mainly
Age: 39
Posts: 423
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There's no particular right or wrong time to get the NQ done, as long as it's done before CPL/IR skills test. Winter does give you advantages though as mentioned by other posters when it comes to airfield opening times - having had a few late nights earlier in the year at Coventry getting people done in time for CPL courses!
I'd tend to agree with MJ about the survival rates for night incidents in singles, especially knowing a (very) little about the case mentioned. Some instructors even suggest pitching to Vne and waiting in the event of an engine failure, it makes the waiting go faster... Terrain especially has to be considered, bearing in mind that night flight involves complying with IFR - I do get a little worried sometimes hearing aircraft transiting around below 2000' at night round the edge of built up areas, over unknown terrain, etc!
I'd tend to agree with MJ about the survival rates for night incidents in singles, especially knowing a (very) little about the case mentioned. Some instructors even suggest pitching to Vne and waiting in the event of an engine failure, it makes the waiting go faster... Terrain especially has to be considered, bearing in mind that night flight involves complying with IFR - I do get a little worried sometimes hearing aircraft transiting around below 2000' at night round the edge of built up areas, over unknown terrain, etc!
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Not a million miles from EGTF
Age: 68
Posts: 1,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At our airfield I've heard lots of CPLs with multi-engine experience all say much the same thing...
Don't fly SEP over water
and don't fly SEP at night
Just out of interest, how many fatals have happened over, say, the last 10 years by an SEP flying at night? Given the low numbers who do anyway, I would guess the answer is not many.
Don't fly SEP over water
and don't fly SEP at night
Just out of interest, how many fatals have happened over, say, the last 10 years by an SEP flying at night? Given the low numbers who do anyway, I would guess the answer is not many.
The last statistics I have seen were for the USA. Measured on a fatal accidents per 100,000 hrs basis, a night flight for non Instrument Rated PPL's, is approximetely 20 times more likely to result in a fatal accident than a comparable flight during the day. After personal experience flying with 4 pilots who held UK PPL's I did not see that they were better pilots in any significant way, than the US PPL's I have also flown with. Therefore I would suggest that the overall statistical picture would be the same for UK PPL's who fly at night. Personnally I no longer fly single engine aircraft at night and file IFR for every night flight I do in a multiengine aircraft regardless of the reported weather.
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wouldn't have thought there were many either.
The chances of something happening are the same as during the day.
Structural failure the out come is going to be the same day or night.
During the day from my limited knowledge your chances of walking away are pretty good in the UK from a power plant failure. The aircraft/pride might be a bit hurt but that's not the end of the world.
The only thing different at night is choosing your crash site and being able to deal with all the other good stuff of putting it down with a crappy landing light showing you the way. Night it will be more luck than judgement.
You then get into the realms of the emergency services being able to find you.
Now I have a link to the report of the crash up at my old school please be aware that the best friend of the lad that died is an active PPruner. If sir you wish me to remove the link please don't hesitate to PM me.
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...le=/G-BWPG.pdf
And to add I believe it's illegal to fly at night in a single in France. And that info that Big piston provided is worse than I expected!!!!!
The chances of something happening are the same as during the day.
Structural failure the out come is going to be the same day or night.
During the day from my limited knowledge your chances of walking away are pretty good in the UK from a power plant failure. The aircraft/pride might be a bit hurt but that's not the end of the world.
The only thing different at night is choosing your crash site and being able to deal with all the other good stuff of putting it down with a crappy landing light showing you the way. Night it will be more luck than judgement.
You then get into the realms of the emergency services being able to find you.
Now I have a link to the report of the crash up at my old school please be aware that the best friend of the lad that died is an active PPruner. If sir you wish me to remove the link please don't hesitate to PM me.
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...le=/G-BWPG.pdf
And to add I believe it's illegal to fly at night in a single in France. And that info that Big piston provided is worse than I expected!!!!!
Last edited by mad_jock; 29th Nov 2009 at 00:00.
Aside from the fact that a forced landing is much more likely to be unsuccessfull at night, other factors which also appear to also have contributed to the very poor night flying accident record are:
1)Spacial disorientation (due to a lack of a visible horizon)
2)CFIT (due to be inablility to see obstacles untill it is too late) and
3)Loss of control due to inadvertantly entering IMC (you cannot see clouds at night)
1)Spacial disorientation (due to a lack of a visible horizon)
2)CFIT (due to be inablility to see obstacles untill it is too late) and
3)Loss of control due to inadvertantly entering IMC (you cannot see clouds at night)
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some instructors even suggest pitching to Vne and waiting in the event of an engine failure, it makes the waiting go faster
Aside from the fact that a forced landing is much more likely to be unsuccessfull at night, other factors which also appear to also have contributed to the very poor night flying accident record are:
1)Spacial disorientation (due to a lack of a visible horizon)
2)CFIT (due to be inablility to see obstacles untill it is too late) and
3)Loss of control due to inadvertantly entering IMC (you cannot see clouds at night)
1)Spacial disorientation (due to a lack of a visible horizon)
2)CFIT (due to be inablility to see obstacles untill it is too late) and
3)Loss of control due to inadvertantly entering IMC (you cannot see clouds at night)
It is a bit of an anomaly that a plain PPL is allowed to fly at night. A proper dark night is IMC. So how does this work??? Logically it would never be allowed. It works because
- few PPLs fly at night
- of those that do, few fly late at night (sunset+30mins is still bright, for a quick local jolly to log the takeoff and landing)
- 99% of the country is just fields, so a forced landing will quite often "work"
Engine failures are so rare (on the certified front; not so sure about the Rotax scene) that they barely feature in the accident stats.
it's illegal to fly at night in a single in France
In many countries, night is IFR and one needs an IR, but not 2 engines.