About to start gliding lessons
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 4,598
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Seemed to be more yaw component in the steep turns than I'm used to in powered aircraft (that rudder thing again)..is this my imagination, or is this actually the case with gliders?
Actually, what you'll find is that it's not the steep turns per se that need a lot of rudder. It's the rolling into and out of a turn that creates the adverse yaw and needs a lot of rudder. But once you're in the turn with a stable bank angle, the need for rudder is a lot less.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Rochdale
Age: 48
Posts: 95
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Been up to Seighford again today and managed three winch launches this afternoon as the weather picked up. Things seem to be progressing nicely we did some stall/recovery exercises which were fun (especially the 30 degree stall) and then when I was on approach during my second flight of the day, waiting for the instructor to say 'I have control', he instead said 'follow through on the brakes' and I ended up doing my first (rather heavy) landing!
Whilst completely unexpected it was a big thrill. I had to turn to the Pete as we got out and say 'did I just land that?'
On my last flight today the landing was much better, but Pete still did the brakes for me. I'm loving flying, should've done it years ago!
Whilst completely unexpected it was a big thrill. I had to turn to the Pete as we got out and say 'did I just land that?'
On my last flight today the landing was much better, but Pete still did the brakes for me. I'm loving flying, should've done it years ago!
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: London, UK
Posts: 196
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you liked stalls, you'll love spins!
keep at it
Hopefully the weather is slowly on the turn now. Stayed up near 3 hrs on Saturday, thermalling - could have been longer, but I am still in "winter mode", so hadn't bought any water or .. related provisions
keep at it
Hopefully the weather is slowly on the turn now. Stayed up near 3 hrs on Saturday, thermalling - could have been longer, but I am still in "winter mode", so hadn't bought any water or .. related provisions
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Rochdale
Age: 48
Posts: 95
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi all,
I had a bad experience yesterday. Went down to the club to fly and was nervous all day before I flew. I have not felt like this before and don't know why as I had a great time last week when I was gliding. The only thing I could put it down to was that I knew I would be flying with an instructor I had not flown with before...
I was so nervous I nearly went home and didnt fly, but I stuck around and when my time came went up with the CFI for the first time. I don't know what went wrong but my co-ordination was completely out, and then when we were on approach and about to land I completely failed to round out in time and had to be rescued by the CFI on the controls. I've had a few bumpy landings before but never had the instructor grab the controls off me.
I know I'm only new to this but would appreciate some input from any of you really? I feel like everything that could go wrong, did go wrong. I made a better approach next time, but still missed the round out. The ground seemed to come up very fast and again the CFI took the controls to ensure we didnt hit the ground hard. Through all of this the instructor was extremely good with me, very patiant, and explained quite a few things I've not properly understood before.
Just to give you all some background I've had 14 flights now, in total about 1hr 40 mins in the air. Last week my landings were good, in similar conditions, similar wind (although I was in the Grob Twin last time, this time I was in the K13).
Anyway, if anyone has any thoughts or can offer any advice as to what has happened to me, or why things suddenly seem to be going badly when they have been going so well, then I am listening!
Thanks,
D
I had a bad experience yesterday. Went down to the club to fly and was nervous all day before I flew. I have not felt like this before and don't know why as I had a great time last week when I was gliding. The only thing I could put it down to was that I knew I would be flying with an instructor I had not flown with before...
I was so nervous I nearly went home and didnt fly, but I stuck around and when my time came went up with the CFI for the first time. I don't know what went wrong but my co-ordination was completely out, and then when we were on approach and about to land I completely failed to round out in time and had to be rescued by the CFI on the controls. I've had a few bumpy landings before but never had the instructor grab the controls off me.
I know I'm only new to this but would appreciate some input from any of you really? I feel like everything that could go wrong, did go wrong. I made a better approach next time, but still missed the round out. The ground seemed to come up very fast and again the CFI took the controls to ensure we didnt hit the ground hard. Through all of this the instructor was extremely good with me, very patiant, and explained quite a few things I've not properly understood before.
Just to give you all some background I've had 14 flights now, in total about 1hr 40 mins in the air. Last week my landings were good, in similar conditions, similar wind (although I was in the Grob Twin last time, this time I was in the K13).
Anyway, if anyone has any thoughts or can offer any advice as to what has happened to me, or why things suddenly seem to be going badly when they have been going so well, then I am listening!
Thanks,
D
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 4,598
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chillindan, you sound suspiciously like a completely normal human being.
It's entirely normal to be nervous every now and then. That keeps you sharp. It's also entirely normal to have a bad day every now and then. And it's very good to bring things like this in the open, analyse it and learn from it.
Sleep on it a couple of nights, leave the bad feeling behind, and take the things you learned from yesterday with you. You'll be just fine.
It's entirely normal to be nervous every now and then. That keeps you sharp. It's also entirely normal to have a bad day every now and then. And it's very good to bring things like this in the open, analyse it and learn from it.
Sleep on it a couple of nights, leave the bad feeling behind, and take the things you learned from yesterday with you. You'll be just fine.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Not a million miles from EGTF
Age: 68
Posts: 1,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sounds like target fixation....
You're getting to the point where the difficulties seem to creep in. I was told you need to make a decent final turn at the right height then keep speed and attitude right.
What you are looking for is the point where the green of the grass changes and you can see individual tufts of grass. That's when you ease back into the hold-off.
It might be worth asking your instructor to fly the next approach and landing and observe the visual clues for yourself. Too often the pressure to do it all yourself means that you don't get a chance to observe.
You're getting to the point where the difficulties seem to creep in. I was told you need to make a decent final turn at the right height then keep speed and attitude right.
What you are looking for is the point where the green of the grass changes and you can see individual tufts of grass. That's when you ease back into the hold-off.
It might be worth asking your instructor to fly the next approach and landing and observe the visual clues for yourself. Too often the pressure to do it all yourself means that you don't get a chance to observe.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 212
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All this is perfectly normal. It happens to everyone when learning to fly gliders.
That will disappear once you've flown with a few different instructors.
A tip - you will find that different instructors work better for you at different stages of your training. Unless yours is a big club you probably can't choose, being stuck with whoever is on duty that day, but it helps to recognise this. If there are two or more instructing, you could always ask to fly with X today (something like "I find X's explanation of [whatever you're working on] easiest to understand" would be tactful). But don't not fly because only Y is instructing - ask to work on something different, and you might find that Y is the best for that (for you).
Very common. You did landings last week, now you're working on (say) stalls and, guess what, you've forgotten how to land. Brain overload. Keep at it. It suddenly comes together and you can't imagine why you ever had a problem.
I went through a phase of this - my instructors must have had nerves of steel to let me continue and land the thing. The problem is usually that you are looking at the point on the runway at which the glider is aiming. The trick is to switch your attention to the far end of the runway (or at least half way along it) at around 50ft, and start very gently easing back on the stick about then. If you're looking at the runway in front of the nose you can't judge height, and suddenly the ground rushes you. If you're looking into the distance you can see the aircraft settling and ease back on the stick as needed. I suggest you ask your instructor about this (explain the problem next time before you fly), and maybe ask for a prompt to move your gaze at the right time.
Gliders are supersensitive to tiny changes in conditions. As an example, a 10 degree change in wind direction might put you in curlover from a hedge or some trees, so that you're flying in sinking air for the last 25 ft - that makes the ground arrive pretty rapidly. Also, a K13 flies nothing like a Grob Twin - if you were doing the same things (as of course you would be at 1.40 hrs), it's no wonder it didn't behave the same way.
Overall, glider flying is about making constant tiny adjustments to keep things looking "about right" (a phrase you will already have heard). It really is just a matter of experience - eventually things like when to round out become entrenched and don't require deep concentration, and that allows you more brain space to think about other aspects of your flying.
If it helps, I started gliding aged 40 and went solo after about 9 hrs (and lots of launches and landings) - about average for my age. It wasn't until about 6 hrs that I had real control of the aircraft, and then it just all seemed to come together at once.
Went down to the club to fly and was nervous all day before I flew ... The only thing I could put it down to was that I knew I would be flying with an instructor I had not flown with before.
A tip - you will find that different instructors work better for you at different stages of your training. Unless yours is a big club you probably can't choose, being stuck with whoever is on duty that day, but it helps to recognise this. If there are two or more instructing, you could always ask to fly with X today (something like "I find X's explanation of [whatever you're working on] easiest to understand" would be tactful). But don't not fly because only Y is instructing - ask to work on something different, and you might find that Y is the best for that (for you).
I don't know what went wrong but my co-ordination was completely out, and then when we were on approach and about to land I completely failed to round out in time and had to be rescued by the CFI on the controls.
I made a better approach next time, but still missed the round out. The ground seemed to come up very fast and again the CFI took the controls to ensure we didnt hit the ground hard.
Last week my landings were good, in similar conditions, similar wind (although I was in the Grob Twin last time, this time I was in the K13).
Overall, glider flying is about making constant tiny adjustments to keep things looking "about right" (a phrase you will already have heard). It really is just a matter of experience - eventually things like when to round out become entrenched and don't require deep concentration, and that allows you more brain space to think about other aspects of your flying.
If it helps, I started gliding aged 40 and went solo after about 9 hrs (and lots of launches and landings) - about average for my age. It wasn't until about 6 hrs that I had real control of the aircraft, and then it just all seemed to come together at once.
The problem is usually that you are looking at the point on the runway at which the glider is aiming. The trick is to switch your attention to the far end of the runway (or at least half way along it) at around 50ft, and start very gently easing back on the stick about then. If you're looking at the runway in front of the nose you can't judge height, and suddenly the ground rushes you. If you're looking into the distance you can see the aircraft settling and ease back on the stick as needed.
Another thing that helps your landings is to actually change your thinking and try NOT to land! It sounds silly, but you should actually be aiming to keep flying as long as possible - "aim at the ground and miss for as long as possible"! Keep the wings level and tracking straight, just let the glider settle gently - it will land itself, provided you keep it flying!
Forcing it down will just end up in hard landings, bounces and balloons.
So for good landings, try not to land!
FBW
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Anyway, if anyone has any thoughts or can offer any advice as to what has happened to me, or why things suddenly seem to be going badly when they have been going so well, then I am listening!
BTW, this kind of thing doesn't stop once you're solo, nor bronze, nor silver. The only difference is that experienced pilots have more expensive mistakes
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,464
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
14 flights really isn't very many, you had changed glider types and you were nervous about flying with a different instructor, so lots of things working subetly against you.
Learning any new skill is very rarely a straight progression, St Vitus dance is far more common especially with older learners.
It all sounds very normal to me, and I'm crossing my fingers the weather improves so you can go back and have a good day.
BTW if you never ever get nervous I'd worry about that much, much more.
Learning any new skill is very rarely a straight progression, St Vitus dance is far more common especially with older learners.
It all sounds very normal to me, and I'm crossing my fingers the weather improves so you can go back and have a good day.
BTW if you never ever get nervous I'd worry about that much, much more.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 433
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You're going to have some good days and some bad ones. The trick is to turn the bad ones into useful learning points (thereby turning them into good days!). As you progress you're sometimes going to feel that you're going backwards. This is ok - it could be that your expectations of your abilities are increasing slightly faster than the rate at which the skills are becoming embedded. Don't worry about this - it just means that you're learning! Don't worry about flying with different instructors either - they're not ogres who're trying to catch you out. They're genuinely there to help you progress and share their knowledge and experience. The CFI is no different - they're just likely to have even more experience and so may be able to help take you that little further outside of your personal comfort zone (or put a little bit more pressure on by throwing in the odd extra curve ball just to see how you handle things). If you feel a bit nervous when you're flying with an instructor and that forces you to think about how you're flying and what options you have if an 'eventuality' occurs ("what if they do this to me...") then keep that thought and take it with you when you're solo.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 647
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
After 40 years of gliding, over 2000 flights, including some instructing, I have long been of the opinion that we try and teach landings too early. In the case of this original poster, to expect to be able to land properly, consistently, after only 14 flights, is far too demanding.
It is quite a while after somebody has started to learn flying before you can even fly straight and level consistently without thinking too hard about it.
A good landing can only come after a good approach, which means having had first a good circuit; having a good appreciation of what the picture should look like during the approach, round out, and landing; and being able not only to fly a straight approach at a constant speed, with judicious use of air brake to maintain the correct flight path, but at the end be able to change attitude gradually during the flare, and change speed, and keep it at the right height above ground during the hold off. After 14 flights?
How much time in 14 flights has been spent on approaching? A few seconds each time. How much time on rounding out and holding off? Even fewer seconds each time.
Some of the 14 landings will have been done by different instructors, and may not look the same each time anyway, with different wind speeds or possibly for other reasons. Probably none of the landings the pilot himself has done during those 14 flights has been the same as each other. There is no chance of knowing yet what the picture should look like, and being able to reproduce it consistently.
For what it's worth, it wasn't until shortly before my going solo on my 70th flight that I was anything like getting consistent good landings. For a long time after that, if I was under pressure for some reason and had not had a good approach leading to a good landing, all too often the landings were not good.
I think the worst thing that happened to me was an instructor talking me through a landing on my fifth launch, writing in my book that I could do my own landings, after which I probably did 50 all different and most of them wrong.
So don't get discouraged, you are normal. Your training is normal, but not what I think it should be. I'm used to being in a minority of one of the gliding world, so don't expect most people to agree with me.
Just my two pen'th.
Chris N.
It is quite a while after somebody has started to learn flying before you can even fly straight and level consistently without thinking too hard about it.
A good landing can only come after a good approach, which means having had first a good circuit; having a good appreciation of what the picture should look like during the approach, round out, and landing; and being able not only to fly a straight approach at a constant speed, with judicious use of air brake to maintain the correct flight path, but at the end be able to change attitude gradually during the flare, and change speed, and keep it at the right height above ground during the hold off. After 14 flights?
How much time in 14 flights has been spent on approaching? A few seconds each time. How much time on rounding out and holding off? Even fewer seconds each time.
Some of the 14 landings will have been done by different instructors, and may not look the same each time anyway, with different wind speeds or possibly for other reasons. Probably none of the landings the pilot himself has done during those 14 flights has been the same as each other. There is no chance of knowing yet what the picture should look like, and being able to reproduce it consistently.
For what it's worth, it wasn't until shortly before my going solo on my 70th flight that I was anything like getting consistent good landings. For a long time after that, if I was under pressure for some reason and had not had a good approach leading to a good landing, all too often the landings were not good.
I think the worst thing that happened to me was an instructor talking me through a landing on my fifth launch, writing in my book that I could do my own landings, after which I probably did 50 all different and most of them wrong.
So don't get discouraged, you are normal. Your training is normal, but not what I think it should be. I'm used to being in a minority of one of the gliding world, so don't expect most people to agree with me.
Just my two pen'th.
Chris N.
Just 14 Landings
I echo those who say that 14 landings are next to nothing. chrisN says it very well and the previous posters have commented well.
One of the things I do with students having trouble judging the flare before getting to first solo is to take them up the TV tower so they can see where they can make the transition to seeing the individual blades of grass.
One of the things I do with students having trouble judging the flare before getting to first solo is to take them up the TV tower so they can see where they can make the transition to seeing the individual blades of grass.
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Oxford, UK
Posts: 1,546
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dont Change The Horse In Midstream!
Dan, me old son.
You are going to have to be firm with those folks.
Say right out loud, I would like to stick with one kind of glider.
So do your training in the 13 or in glass, but changing about is not a good idea at all. Okay, the instructor in the back seat gets changed about, some are getting on a bit and fixed in their ways (like me!). But you have to tell him (almost never her, alas)what you prefer.
I didn't start gliding until I was 50, (last week, I tell my students), and it took 65 airtows to achieve solo. And to learn the landings I had to cheat, and do a bit of that in a power plane. Consider a motor glider if they have one up there, BUT
Very likely you are not ready for landings yet. Get confident in handling in the upper air, practice, practice. Show that you can maintain an approach attitude and speed. Do a coordinated turn, maintaining speed.
Use airbrakes, maintaining attitude. etc. etc etc.
Then ask the instructor to demonstrate "landings at altitude"
This works for my students. In a K13, at altitude, we set approach speed, we set half brakes, we pretend we are near the ground, and slowly ease back, ease back, ease back, and having "landed" recover from that and do it again. And again.
Then the instructor demonstrates the landing. Nailing the approach speed is vital, if you cant maintain an approach speed at altitude,work on that first. After watching the instructor do a landing, you just go up together again right away and do it again, only this time it is YOU!
I feel that instructors try too hard to provide "value" for students, and do not do sufficient demonstrations.
I also nearly chickened out altogether, the first time my instructor demonstrated unusual attitudes, but came back. Again. And again. If I could do it, you can too. Go for it!
Mary
You are going to have to be firm with those folks.
Say right out loud, I would like to stick with one kind of glider.
So do your training in the 13 or in glass, but changing about is not a good idea at all. Okay, the instructor in the back seat gets changed about, some are getting on a bit and fixed in their ways (like me!). But you have to tell him (almost never her, alas)what you prefer.
I didn't start gliding until I was 50, (last week, I tell my students), and it took 65 airtows to achieve solo. And to learn the landings I had to cheat, and do a bit of that in a power plane. Consider a motor glider if they have one up there, BUT
Very likely you are not ready for landings yet. Get confident in handling in the upper air, practice, practice. Show that you can maintain an approach attitude and speed. Do a coordinated turn, maintaining speed.
Use airbrakes, maintaining attitude. etc. etc etc.
Then ask the instructor to demonstrate "landings at altitude"
This works for my students. In a K13, at altitude, we set approach speed, we set half brakes, we pretend we are near the ground, and slowly ease back, ease back, ease back, and having "landed" recover from that and do it again. And again.
Then the instructor demonstrates the landing. Nailing the approach speed is vital, if you cant maintain an approach speed at altitude,work on that first. After watching the instructor do a landing, you just go up together again right away and do it again, only this time it is YOU!
I feel that instructors try too hard to provide "value" for students, and do not do sufficient demonstrations.
I also nearly chickened out altogether, the first time my instructor demonstrated unusual attitudes, but came back. Again. And again. If I could do it, you can too. Go for it!
Mary
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Rochdale
Age: 48
Posts: 95
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks to all for the advice and words of encouragement. I was hoping to go flying tomorrow but it looks like winter is back....
I will keep at it, I do feel better today, and was really looking for confirmation that this happens to other people as well. I have wanted to learn to fly for such a long time that I have plenty of motivation, but my confidence just took a bit of a knock after sunday.
I will try some of the things you have all suggested especially the practice approach and landings at altitude. I'm also going to get my instructor to do the next landing and also to talk me through what he is doing and when, so that I can take my time to look around and try and appreciate the changing view etc.
Thanks to all the folks on here for your time!
I will keep at it, I do feel better today, and was really looking for confirmation that this happens to other people as well. I have wanted to learn to fly for such a long time that I have plenty of motivation, but my confidence just took a bit of a knock after sunday.
I will try some of the things you have all suggested especially the practice approach and landings at altitude. I'm also going to get my instructor to do the next landing and also to talk me through what he is doing and when, so that I can take my time to look around and try and appreciate the changing view etc.
Thanks to all the folks on here for your time!
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,464
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Also, you have wanted to fly so much for so long, and I feel that is putting more pressure on yourself and too much pressure IMHO doesn't help.
You are 34, so are likely to go solo faster than old folks like Mary and I did, but the only people I know who have solod a glider in less than 40 flights have had substantial previous flying experience - one for example was a former RAF fast jet jockey and CFS instructor. Us lesser mortals take longer - much longer in some cases!
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 212
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ChrisN is almost entirely right, except for the part about consistently good landings.
With nearly 500 hrs and a fair few cross-country miles under my belt, the best I can achieve is consistently adequate landings. Even then, around 1 in 10 is less well-controlled than I like, though still safe. I think it's a matter of constant practice - when I was Basic Instructing I did lots of good landings because I did lots of landings each day I flew.
But you should aim at consistently good landings, because if you fall short at least it will be acceptable. Just don't beat yourself up if they're not perfect every time.
You will find some consolation over the next month watching the highly experienced pilots who have not flown much over the winter - many of their landings will be rather untidy to say the least.
With nearly 500 hrs and a fair few cross-country miles under my belt, the best I can achieve is consistently adequate landings. Even then, around 1 in 10 is less well-controlled than I like, though still safe. I think it's a matter of constant practice - when I was Basic Instructing I did lots of good landings because I did lots of landings each day I flew.
But you should aim at consistently good landings, because if you fall short at least it will be acceptable. Just don't beat yourself up if they're not perfect every time.
You will find some consolation over the next month watching the highly experienced pilots who have not flown much over the winter - many of their landings will be rather untidy to say the least.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Wor Yerm
Age: 68
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You are trying too hard. You'll get where you are going to eventually, but you have to remember that you go gliding for fun. It's not the RAF and neither is it an airline. A reasonable landing is good enough. Reasonable speed control is also good enough. What you have to have cracked is good trim control and an excellent lookout (then the rest will be easy, as you will see). Amazingly, good trim control is obtained by all things, a good lookout. Why? Because when you get to your target attitude, you hold it visually (not by using ANY instrument) and move the trim to zero the trim forces. I'll also bet a pound to a penny that you hold the control column with a fierce grip. How should you hold it? Just like you'd hold a smelly old tramp's willy - finger tips only!
PM
PM