Who thinks UK airspace is complicated?

[IO540]

This might make you think twice.

I have flown through there in 2004 and 2005 but can't work out which bit is which now, unambiguously.

UK charting is exemplary in comparison with this kind of stuff.

[ft]

Around where I'm at, in a certain TMA, you look at the TMA in the (AIP) chart and find

FL95
-----
4500

There you are in your spam can, cruising VFR at 3000. "Awesome", you think, and buzz right underneath it.

Guess what? You just busted their airspace.

In another corner of the same (largish) TMA on the map there's another note stating

4500
-----
1500

You guessed it, there's a sector divide at 4500. The fact remains though that it is a tad tricky to know if you should look for one, two, three or eight altitude block specifications in one 2D TMA outline.

Yes, it's reported. Yes, still there AFAIK. Comments?

[IO540]

The UK CAA VFR charts do manage to avoid ambiguity though. I have never seen an unclear spot on them.

The Jepp charts can be awful - as my example shows. Yet, they represent the only uniform map option for most of Europe.

For the rest of "Europe" we have just the ONC/TPC charts, from 1998 or earlier, depicting no airspace classes at all.

[hambleoldboy]

As it says on the chart, just call Zurich Info on 124.70, they will radar identify you, warn and/or guide you around controlled airspace/restricted areas and give you conflicting traffic information - unlike the absurd UK 'Basic Service'...

Chris, LSMF Mollis, regular flyer to Locarno

[IO540]

Hmmm, last time I tried this, they absolutely refused to let me climb into the Class C, base FL130. So I flew at FL129 from Wangen Lachen, right across, ~ 1500ft above the terrain Got some good photos but on a different kind of day the outcome would have been very different.

The thing is that one should never depart on a VFR flight without understanding the airspace ahead, and without having a route planned which is outside controlled airspace - because it is always possible to not get a clearance. I just can't work out a route through this maze. Maybe there is a trick to interpreting these Jepp charts?

I agree the UK BS is useless.

[Scalper]

if you look at the icao chart instead you'll see that the airspace is a lot less complicated

[hambleoldboy]

Is that a Jepp chart? It's certainly well cluttered and difficult to interpret. The Skyguide Swiss half mill ICAO chart is much easier to read. For example the approach stubs into Locarno are military tempo only, rarely activated by Notam, so are not given any prominence.

Generally you can fly anywhere over the Alps up to FL130 (Class E) or 2000ft above surface (Class G) which isn't too bad? Above it's primarily military airspace; when they aren't active which is from 1205-1315L and after 1705L and at weekends you can normally negotiate a clearance.

[IO540]

It was a Jepp "VFR/GPS" 1:500k 2009 chart which I got that extract from.

I flew with the Swiss "ICAO" chart in 2004 and would never do so again because it mised up altitudes in metres and feet, in a manner which was not readily obvious I was flying along, fortunately in VMC, and thought "these hills are a lot bigger than the map shows"

Somebody should tell Jepp to change this depiction.

Just checked the 2008 Jepp chart and it shows the same stuff. So it's been there a while.

[Scalper]

Generally you can fly anywhere over the Alps up to FL130 (Class E) or 2000ft above surface (Class G)

and when the Military aren't active, over the alps it's Class E up to FL 150

[Piper19]

Check out Belgian airspace. Can give you some headaches. Begin with the civ-mil shared Brussels-Beavechain area and try to find the differences between mil active or not. And then move on to study the german border. Luckily their FIS will make life easier.

[IO540]

I suppose much depends on one's willingness to depart on a VFR flight while banking on CAS transits.

I wouldn't do that in most places I've been to.

[hatzflyer]

Belgian air space looks a nightmare on the charts, but I find their ATC very helpfull . I have flown there many times and got confused by the charts but have always had excellent guidance by the controllers.
Basically if you talk to them in plenty of time they will give you heights as needed to keep you out of trouble and they don't seem to mind giving clearances through airspace if it is not too busy. I have received clearance right overhead Brussels in order to remain clear of thunderstorms and the same for Antwerp.

However they do get hissy if you don't talk to them, especially the guy at Ostende. I have frequently been receiving a service from him which goes " above and beyond" the expected only to hear others get an earbashing that would leave you feeling about an inch tall from him because they strayed one foot into his airspace before calling him!

[IO540]

And if the controller says "remain outside controlled airspace", your "Plan B" is.... what exactly?

[hatzflyer]

If you reread my post you will see that I have never entered any airspace without permission. I have also not entered violent thunder storms.

Plan B as always would be to have a plan B before setting off.

[IO540]

My original post was concerning airspace so apparently complex one can't work it out from the chart.

So it is no good talking about ATC being helpful, because no matter how helpful ATC might be usually, if one is flying VFR one must have a Plan B which is wholly OCAS and which one can fall back onto at any time.

Or maybe some pilots just fly and bluff their way along... I never tried that I do know it would not work significantly south of Switzerland, either.

I too used to fly through e.g. Belgium at FL080 or whatever, VFR, under radar control, with ATC giving me headings. A very enlightened attitude compared to the UK. But this could not be assured up front. And an OCAS route via Belgium was at a very low level and a little tricky.

I still don't see how Jepp arrive at that airspace depiction, reltive to the Swiss national chart, and have apparently had it for 1-2 years without correcting it. Does the Swiss chart have an altitude limit which somehow strips out all that airspace?

[Scalper]

on the Jepp chart the C airspace north of Locarno is depicted as several different airspaces all going from FL130 to FL195

the Swiss Icao chart makes it clearer by depicting it as a single C airspace that goes from FL130 to FL195 like on the Jepp

However from a practical point of view that airspace is not much of a concern since over the Alps all of switzerland is C airspace from FL130 when MIL is not off, and Locarno TMA is not active unless notamed