"Failed stunt causes crash" ...
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I have very mixed feelings on this. Firstly the fact that he had no medical licence etc had NO relevance to the crash.
IE Had he had all the documentation the accident would still have happened.
Whether his lack of licences indicated a personality type who is more prone to take risks and to do low level aerobatics to impress his passengers is another thing.
We have enough regulations as it is without further prying into our lives and habits. All these regulations do is to equal more expense to the pilot and more hassle and in the end less freedom in our already over stifled point a finger society.
If this accident had been put down to pilot incapaciation due to a heart attack and no medical for several years then yes this thread drift could be justified.
The fact is that it wasnt! The fact is that this accident was caused by someone larking about probably trying to impress his passengers and not within its weight or CofG limits.
The pilot could have had all his documentation in order and the accident would still have occured.
It would be better to stress the fact that aircraft do bite with tragic consequences when abused and that is the real lesson to be learnt from this.
Pace
IE Had he had all the documentation the accident would still have happened.
Whether his lack of licences indicated a personality type who is more prone to take risks and to do low level aerobatics to impress his passengers is another thing.
We have enough regulations as it is without further prying into our lives and habits. All these regulations do is to equal more expense to the pilot and more hassle and in the end less freedom in our already over stifled point a finger society.
If this accident had been put down to pilot incapaciation due to a heart attack and no medical for several years then yes this thread drift could be justified.
The fact is that it wasnt! The fact is that this accident was caused by someone larking about probably trying to impress his passengers and not within its weight or CofG limits.
The pilot could have had all his documentation in order and the accident would still have occured.
It would be better to stress the fact that aircraft do bite with tragic consequences when abused and that is the real lesson to be learnt from this.
Pace
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Out of date paperwork does not, in itself, cause accidents but it does say a lot about a pilot's standard of airmanship. A significant lack of airmanship seems to be the root cause of this crash.
Some pilots have always dug their own graves. The tragedy is taking innocent people with them. You cannot legislate against people who choose to ignore legislation, the only alternatives being 'taking it on risk' as the report suggests or greater enforcement through ramp checks etc - a PITA that no-one really wants.
Some pilots have always dug their own graves. The tragedy is taking innocent people with them. You cannot legislate against people who choose to ignore legislation, the only alternatives being 'taking it on risk' as the report suggests or greater enforcement through ramp checks etc - a PITA that no-one really wants.
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I don't see why the CAA should write to everyone to "remind" them...It won't make one iota of difference to someone intent on flying without one anyway. We want to get away from this nannying culture.
I also think that it is up to the passengers to convince themselves that the flight will be conducted safely. I won't fly with just anyone, there are a few "pilots" I have met that I wouldn't step into the plane with.
I also think that it is up to the passengers to convince themselves that the flight will be conducted safely. I won't fly with just anyone, there are a few "pilots" I have met that I wouldn't step into the plane with.
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I also think that it is up to the passengers to convince themselves that the flight will be conducted safely. I won't fly with just anyone, there are a few "pilots" I have met that I wouldn't step into the plane with.
I hold FAA licences and my licences and medical status can be checked online but would a prospective passenger ever know or go to the trouble of checking for a sunday afternoon hop? I doubt it.
No its the passengers who need to be targeted to ask to see a pilots licence and current medical and to be made aware of that need! How you do that I dont know?
Pilots need to be made aware of how helpless passengers are and what a massive responsibility we hold taking people flying with us.
Pace
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Obviously the lack of paperwork was in no way contributory to the accident, but that lack of legality will have added immensely to the ramifications of the accident for the surviving relatives and family in that (as has been mentioned) insurance companies may not pay out etc. This goes towards compounding what is already a tragic and traumatic time for these people.
Generally I am of the opinion, the less regulation and official interevention the better but do think that a simple electronic system of pulling the CAA records together in a useful rather than useless bureaucratic way might be of some value.
Amen to that!
Generally I am of the opinion, the less regulation and official interevention the better but do think that a simple electronic system of pulling the CAA records together in a useful rather than useless bureaucratic way might be of some value.
Pilots need to be made aware of how helpless passengers are and what a massive responsibility we hold taking people flying with us.
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Michael
the FAA and USA have a freedom of information that we dont have. Anyone who knows my name can check my FAA ATP and last medical.
The problem with that is that it is a database and as such it is just as easy for the UK passengers to ask to see your licence and to check that your medical is in order on the spot prior to the flight.
While they are at it they can also check the insurance as you may have a valid licence and medical but NO insurance.
That would be just as easy as a passenger checking an online database and would require the same passenger motivation.
As for on the spot checks! who is going to check farmer Giles unwrapping his Piper Cub from the depths of the farmyard barn and trundling down his 400 meter field ? That is the most likely sort of scenario for an unlicenced uninsured pilot?
Pace
the FAA and USA have a freedom of information that we dont have. Anyone who knows my name can check my FAA ATP and last medical.
The problem with that is that it is a database and as such it is just as easy for the UK passengers to ask to see your licence and to check that your medical is in order on the spot prior to the flight.
While they are at it they can also check the insurance as you may have a valid licence and medical but NO insurance.
That would be just as easy as a passenger checking an online database and would require the same passenger motivation.
As for on the spot checks! who is going to check farmer Giles unwrapping his Piper Cub from the depths of the farmyard barn and trundling down his 400 meter field ? That is the most likely sort of scenario for an unlicenced uninsured pilot?
Pace
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I hate to say this but, just as automatic number plate recognition has snared untaxed, uninsured cars (and I know they are not 100% perfect), then Mode S which, AIUI, encodes the individual aircraft's ID, would make it easy for ATC to spot transgressors if they could get one database to talk to another. Even if not used all the time, it might encourage compliance by its very presence.
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Number plate recognition tied to the DVLC databases has found some seriously nasty individuals. Usually these cameras alert Plod further down the road to pull the scroats over.
Of course that assumes that their data is up-to-date and correct. A friend was pulled over 2 days after he'd bought his car, as they believed that he was uninsured - the data had not gone through.
And you can forget about Mode S for the light end of GA (thank goodness) for a while.
But please don't volunteer ideas like this. Our surveillance state would just love them.
Of course that assumes that their data is up-to-date and correct. A friend was pulled over 2 days after he'd bought his car, as they believed that he was uninsured - the data had not gone through.
And you can forget about Mode S for the light end of GA (thank goodness) for a while.
But please don't volunteer ideas like this. Our surveillance state would just love them.
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These suggestions are chasing a problem that does not exist. Posters can think of three incidents in the recent past - 2 fatal, one not.
Over that period almost 10,000 people have died on the roads - the vast majority of these deaths caused by plain incompetence and carelessness. And yet a significant proportion of drivers are on the road illegally - by some estimates well in excess of 10% of all vehicles on the road.
If you want to protect children and others your energy would be far far better employed looking there, rather than further burdening private flying and making our hobby near untenable.
Perhaps all inexperience pilots should be banned from flying solo until they have more than 300 hours? Why not have compulsory physometric testing, security clearances and a degree before you are allowed to train for a licence? None of these 'suggestions' are much more ludicrous............ or measured.
Over that period almost 10,000 people have died on the roads - the vast majority of these deaths caused by plain incompetence and carelessness. And yet a significant proportion of drivers are on the road illegally - by some estimates well in excess of 10% of all vehicles on the road.
If you want to protect children and others your energy would be far far better employed looking there, rather than further burdening private flying and making our hobby near untenable.
Perhaps all inexperience pilots should be banned from flying solo until they have more than 300 hours? Why not have compulsory physometric testing, security clearances and a degree before you are allowed to train for a licence? None of these 'suggestions' are much more ludicrous............ or measured.
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flying and making our hobby near untenable.
In principle I agree that we should not encumber GA with pointless rules etc. but GA here in the UK should demand more utility from the CAA. If that gives the public more useful information that might aid their safety then why not?
The FAA can do it, why not the CAA?
Your stats argument is somewhat misleading but as that is probably the basis for another thread I'll leave it there.
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Michael
The FAA do it because there are different laws in the USA regarding data in the public domain. To do so in the UK would breach existing UK laws.
The question you have to answer is what would it achieve? If the potentail pax are savvy enough to check you online surely they can ask to see the real thing ie your licence, medical, and insurance docs. I am nervous of allowing Gordon Brown to further chuck money away in creating more jobs to fill his quangos, to create more regulations which cost us more money then to have an Army of highly paid government jobs with more people checking up on us all.
Maybe make it legal to carry a placard viewable by the passengers stating
" It is in your own interest to ask to see your pilots medical, licence and insurance documents. If these are not available or in order do not fly with the said pilot as the insurance will be void ".
I stress again although shocking to the rest of us that this pilot had NO medical or licence that fact had NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS CRASH! It will have voided his insurance if he had any as it would be pointless without the licence or medical.
Pace
The FAA can do it, why not the CAA?
The question you have to answer is what would it achieve? If the potentail pax are savvy enough to check you online surely they can ask to see the real thing ie your licence, medical, and insurance docs. I am nervous of allowing Gordon Brown to further chuck money away in creating more jobs to fill his quangos, to create more regulations which cost us more money then to have an Army of highly paid government jobs with more people checking up on us all.
Maybe make it legal to carry a placard viewable by the passengers stating
" It is in your own interest to ask to see your pilots medical, licence and insurance documents. If these are not available or in order do not fly with the said pilot as the insurance will be void ".
I stress again although shocking to the rest of us that this pilot had NO medical or licence that fact had NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS CRASH! It will have voided his insurance if he had any as it would be pointless without the licence or medical.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 8th Oct 2009 at 17:45.
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Maybe make it legal to carry a placard viewable by the passengers staing
" It is in your own interest to ask to see your pilots medical, licence and insurance documents. If these are not available do not fly with the said pilot".
" It is in your own interest to ask to see your pilots medical, licence and insurance documents. If these are not available do not fly with the said pilot".
One psychological reason why people might want to check anonymously is that it is often difficult to question someone face to face just before a flight in the sense that it might be seen as provocative or distrustful (some people have notoriously thin skins).
As for the Data Protection Act etc. I will check what personal details (medicals certainly are) might be covered by this legislation that, of course, could be changed.
I am arguing that the CAA should be providing us all with a minumum of info online right now at no extra cost to the pilots (GA & Commerical) or passengers.
I share your utter distaste for quangos etc. and am all for making GA simpler and more accessible to all.
I wonder what the UK AOPA are doing or think about subjects like this.
Not a lot one way or the other I'd guess.
Anyway, whatever I may think, this accident appears to have occurred because of human hubris and I suppose no website is going to stop that!
MB
I am arguing that the CAA should be providing us all with a minumum of info online right now at no extra cost to the pilots (GA & Commerical) or passengers.
Oh you sweet innocent. Have you slept through the last twelve years, and much of the half century before that?
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Michael you are tilting at windmills - given significant amounts of the data on G-INFO is inaccurate, the CAa address database is near hopeless, what is your 'big brother state' going to achieve? More jobsworths and more surveillance. Improving safety? How?
As for the statistics being inaccurate - they come from official sources (4 years of road deaths - over 10,700 deaths - if you want to take issue with them best of luck.....
As for the statistics being inaccurate - they come from official sources (4 years of road deaths - over 10,700 deaths - if you want to take issue with them best of luck.....
Upto The Buffers
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Pilot-related information such as available in FAA-land would not have prevented an accident such as this. I sincerely doubt his passengers would have had the faintest idea what he should/shouldn't have in terms of approval and where to find it.
Perhaps if he'd kept legal, instructors would have detected any creeping complacency in his flying, but we'll never know.
This man was clearly an individual who took the rules with a pinch of salt and somehow thought they didn't apply to him. I'm sure he was probably a jolly nice chap in the workplace and at home, where his actions couldn be laughed off and not do excessive damage, but as a pilot he became an irresponsible twät. It's very sad that his incompetent showing-off led to the death of 2 people who thought they were going up for a bit of fun with a trusted colleague.
Perhaps if he'd kept legal, instructors would have detected any creeping complacency in his flying, but we'll never know.
This man was clearly an individual who took the rules with a pinch of salt and somehow thought they didn't apply to him. I'm sure he was probably a jolly nice chap in the workplace and at home, where his actions couldn be laughed off and not do excessive damage, but as a pilot he became an irresponsible twät. It's very sad that his incompetent showing-off led to the death of 2 people who thought they were going up for a bit of fun with a trusted colleague.
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Shunter
This is nothing unique. There are careful pilots and those that take risks and like to chuck it around a bit. A case of old and bold pilots maybe?
The licencing thing is a Red Herring as I have known pilots who fit the Bold category and some who have sadly gone to their maker. These include fully licenced PPLs, CPLs and ATPLs and instructors even an examiner but lets not go there.
The fact is aircraft bite especially when an Ego is involved, type A personality call them what you want. that is OK when on your own but very sad when innocent people who dont understand aviation put their trust in you to keep them safe. But you will never change that it has always been that way and always will be.
Pace
This is nothing unique. There are careful pilots and those that take risks and like to chuck it around a bit. A case of old and bold pilots maybe?
The licencing thing is a Red Herring as I have known pilots who fit the Bold category and some who have sadly gone to their maker. These include fully licenced PPLs, CPLs and ATPLs and instructors even an examiner but lets not go there.
The fact is aircraft bite especially when an Ego is involved, type A personality call them what you want. that is OK when on your own but very sad when innocent people who dont understand aviation put their trust in you to keep them safe. But you will never change that it has always been that way and always will be.
Pace
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Shunter..how right you are.
Looking back over the last couple of years I can think of several accidents where innocent people have been taken to their graves by cowboy pilots.
The Sandown accident..Colin McRae..etc etc.
Graham Hill did the same as this pilot. Who would have dared question his qualifications and skill.
Every time we have one of these tragedies in the national news it does damage to our pastime.
It was pure luck that in this case the aircraft crashed in the centre of the two lines. In another situation he could have taken out a train.
Whenever we have an incident we get the rubberneckers and mawkers with
crocodile tears and condolences to people they don't know. Then we are told to not jump to conclusions until the report comes out. And when it does
it usually confirms the speculation
I'm all for very big red signs at every airfield asking passengers to check
pilot and aircraft papers.
But we all have a duty to report cavalier operators.
Looking back over the last couple of years I can think of several accidents where innocent people have been taken to their graves by cowboy pilots.
The Sandown accident..Colin McRae..etc etc.
Graham Hill did the same as this pilot. Who would have dared question his qualifications and skill.
Every time we have one of these tragedies in the national news it does damage to our pastime.
It was pure luck that in this case the aircraft crashed in the centre of the two lines. In another situation he could have taken out a train.
Whenever we have an incident we get the rubberneckers and mawkers with
crocodile tears and condolences to people they don't know. Then we are told to not jump to conclusions until the report comes out. And when it does
it usually confirms the speculation
I'm all for very big red signs at every airfield asking passengers to check
pilot and aircraft papers.
But we all have a duty to report cavalier operators.
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Generally I am of the opinion, the less regulation and official interevention the better but do think that a simple electronic system of pulling the CAA records together in a useful rather than useless bureaucratic way might be of some value.
Just stop it! Please! There are control freak bureaucrats who take such nonsense seriously, and we all suffer for it. Those who are afraid of living, go hide under your beds, and stop bothering the rest of us.
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I stress again although shocking to the rest of us that this pilot had NO medical or licence that fact had NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS CRASH! It will have voided his insurance if he had any as it would be pointless without the licence or medical.