Switching from VFR to IFR

[pplir2000]

Has anybody had experiance of changing from VFR flight plan to IFR whilst enroute anywhere in Europe? I would be interested to know if it caused problems.

[mm_flynn]

I have done it on occasion in France with no problems (but way below CAT levels and not into any busy areas). In the UK switching a transit from VFR/IFR while remaining outside class A seems no problem. However, getting a popup IFR airways clearance is not likely to be successful.

I find in Europe (weighing less than 2 tons) it is easier to just file IFR if there is any chance of needing an IFR clearance. If I weighed 2.2 tonnes, I suspect the weather would be much nicer throughout Europe.

[IO540]

I have never succeeded in getting a "popup clearance" in the UK, but the UK has an especially weird "watertight Class A" system.

The only other airspace (relevant to GA) in the UK is Class D and one can get transits of that OK, and VFR to IFR conversion is also OK there. But these are small bits of airspace. All the "enroute IFR" airspace is Class A and as I say it's hard to get into that.

Last time I tried it, they asked me for the entry point I wanted. I gave them one intersection and they refused that, saying that the base of Class A at that point was above where I then was. Obviously I could have joined CAS by a climb but they either wanted me to join it laterally (in which case where the hell was I going to find a usable intersection - there aren't any on the lateral edge of CAS are there??) or they wanted to be obstructive and wanted to make sure I give up. This was Manchester IIRC. I just gave up and say in some mucky cloud for the next hour...

If I want to fly IFR I just file a Eurocontrol flight plan for FL160, make sure I have enough oxygen, and get on with it Europe isn't like America, evidently

[what next]

Hello!

No problems at all in Germany. You call ATC on the relevant "Information" frequency, state your intentions and within a few minutes you will be transferred to a radar controller who gives you an IFR clearance. The process might take a few minutes if it is a busy time of the day, but until now they never refused to assist.

Greetings, Max

[IO540]

Same in France. They have a joined-up system there. The regional FIS frequency transfers you to say Paris Control, and up you go

There has been much debate on this on Flyer.co.uk - it isn't a simple matter. In the UK, flight plans are not distributed in a manner which would support this. In France, evidently, if you file a VFR FP from anywhere to anywhere, it gets distributed all over the country (or is available to all units, which is the same thing). So Paris Control can pull it up right away, and knock up an IFR route from it. Whereas in the UK, a VFR FP is visible to London Info (or equivalent) only, London Control sits in a hermetically sealed building somewhere, and liason between the two is very limited. If an IFR flight plan (of some sort - even a simple route fragment) cannot be constructed, then you obviously cannot get the clearance because in the IFR world you are flying a route which the ATCO can see on his computer and can see where you are going.

I don't know what happens in the USA. Maybe they manage > FL180 traffic dynamically, without having to construct a route. But from everything I have seen in Europe, they do have to construct a route.

[Pace]

10540

I have never succeeded in getting a "popup clearance" in the UK, but the UK has an especially weird "watertight Class A" system.

I have never had a problem getting an IFR clearance into CAS in France from VFR.

I have not tried in England but on a couple of occasions my IFR plan could not be found and a clearance has been cobbled together by the ATC unit, these were joining from OCAS to CAS so it must be possible. I did once negoatiate an IFR clearance with Scottish having started a trip from Inverness VFR. I gave them my required joining point, estimates levels and routing. It should be possible south of Scotland through London info but again at a guess depending where you are. London area forget it

Pace

[mm_flynn]

In the UK they can clearly generate an IFR plan if they want to. However, it seems a major PITA for the guys. On an occassion where they can't find the plan (or you show up on a c@cked up IFR handover from some other FIR) the controllers can sort it, but it does seem to cause a lot of faffing in the background.

In the US, the system is pretty simple, a couple of keystokes generates a fragment flightplan, assigns the unique SSR code and you are good to go (i.e. for a clearance to go VFR->IFR to shoot an approach through a cloud deck). This is the same process they use if you call for flightfollowing (which needs a basic FPL inorder to assign the unique SSR code - AIUI). If you decide you want your enroute flight to be IFR, I think it is better practice to call FSS and give them the full plan rather than try and get a 90 second slot of airtime from NY TRACON!

[Pace]

In the UK they can clearly generate an IFR plan if they want to

mm flyin

That is probably the key they will do with good cause but not something to be encouraged and in areas of heavy traffic unlikely with good cause or otherwise.

The uk is a small area with intense traffic covering a large portion of that area

Pace

[Miles Magister]

I did it recently in a twin piston going into Liverpool from the south. I wanted to fly an ILS so called Liverpool radar with the classic call you are taught from the CAP 413 and they coordinated with Manachester for a seamless arrival.

I also do this from some of the smaller airfields such as Peterborough, Leicester, Nottingham etc. I file a VFR to IFR flight plan then call London info on departure. I call them with "G-XXXX requesting IFR clearance" wait until the controller is ready then give;

Callsign
Request they activate my IFR flight plan
Type
PoB
Sqwak
Current position
Current Alt
Current heading
Airfield of departure
Time of departure
Destination
Requested point of entry and FL
estimate for the point of entry

Then add that you will remain clear of controlled airspace pending your clearance.

If you are calling London and your point of entry is in Manachester then also state that as it helps their coordination.

These are good guys with a high workload, make life easy for them and sound professional with no ums or errs in your call and they will have confidence in your ability to join efficiently.

If you can they will ask you to climb to your joining level and join laterally but if you are below the london TMA you will have to join climbing.

Just remember that they are coordinating alot of arrivals and departures so if you can request a join away from the arrival or departure routes then do so.

MM

[Pace]

Miles Magister

I think you are talking about requesting an IFR clearance into a zone which is a bit different to filing an IFR flight plan in the air.
Is that what you mean?

Yes it is also possible to file a flightplan starting OCAS ie VFR becoming IFR or IFR becoming VFR. In that situation you would talk to London Info to pick up your joining clearance with level and estimates for the joining point.

If that is what you have filed then its already filed although I will add its easier just to file the whole lot IFR with DCT your joining point.
If you have NO flight plan filed FILING it and getting it accepted it in the air is not so easy.

Pace

[pplir2000]

My post on VFR to IFR

Thanks to everybody who replied. I wanted to see what the current experience pilots were having. I had a pretty easy transition from VFR to IFR in France in the last 3 years, but I have to agree that the UK has it's own problems. The experience I had about 6 years back when I had filed an IFR flight plan, on an IFR day, only to be told "London cannot take you due to workload, after 20 minutes of asking London Info for my clearance, after departing from a strip into the low cloudbase,low viz conditions,still rankles. I got the official letter apologising etc......

[Whopity]

Some years ago I left Pontoise and tried to file IFR due to weather but they would not accept IFR departures. Once airborne, we tried to file an airborne flight plan for IFR and were told to land at Rennes and refile. By now we were IFR and eventually got a clearance from Paris.

[Flashheart II]

Hi,

I've been reading this thread and it has highlighted a number of grey areas in my understanding of practical IFR flying. I have an IR but not a lot of IFR experience and when I did the course their wasn't a lot of instruction given on some of these practical issues.

Can anyone recommend some books or good sources of information on IFR flying in Europe for light aircraft?

Cheers

[OVC002]

Try,



PPL/IR Europe - Home

[IO540]

Some years ago I left Pontoise and tried to file IFR due to weather but they would not accept IFR departures. Once airborne, we tried to file an airborne flight plan for IFR and were told to land at Rennes and refile. By now we were IFR and eventually got a clearance from Paris.

I think a lot changed in France c. 2003. Before that, half the place was asleep at weekends and they were not really with it (I was VFR in those days). The regional FIS e.g. Aquitaine might be an answering machine.

Today, the place is totally joined up. You file a flight plan of any sort, anywhere in France, and it is apparent that this FP can be pulled up by any unit anywhere in France. Also, it is apparent that every enroute or FIS controller has a radar screen. None of this silly UK ATC payroll / union demarcation where only radar qualified ATCOs may have sight of a radar screen; every French ATCO is radar qualified. They can all see you, and consequently are pretty laid back about it.

Nowadays I always fly IFR down that way (for the low workload, etc) and it is very smooth. This week I was flying back from Croatia to UK (nonstop) and somewhere over Germany my IFR flight plan got wiped from the system. Four changes of squawk later, and in France, they asked me my destination and rebuilt the FP and all was sorted.

Unfortunately, on the subject of airborne VFR to IFR conversions, the time one is likely to be doing this is when the weather has gone down the plughole ahead of you, and the clearance may take time to come through.

A typical scenario is where you are VFR (say France) at FL100, which is probably Class E. Some 30nm ahead you see a lot of solid CU with tops c. FL150 so you want to climb to say FL180. But this is Class D and (according to notam) France (Paris Control) doesn't grant enroute VFR transits through this airspace. Tried this a few times and was always refused. So you need an IFR clearance. This might take say 5 mins. At 150kt, you have travelled a fair distance and now you have 8000ft to climb in not many miles.

The pilot of N2195B was flying "VFR" and (according to the very little info that has come out to date) asked for an IFR clearance, which was some time coming, and he ended up in an embedded +TSRA. To be fair, I think he made some really major screwups and should not have been there to start with, but this illustrates that a popup clearance may not be the instant fix that some may expect. Far better to file IFR to start with and enjoy having ATC working for you instead of the other way around which is the traditional VFR scenario

[M609]

To generate a abbreviated IFR or VFR plan in our system we have the following inputs to make on the LCD touch screen:

"FPL" - "Type callsign" - "Space" - "C" ....10 seconds at the most

And the system the generates a code and flight progress strip in my working position. You can then use that plan (called AFIL) and give clearance to enter CAS. I can also use it to coordinate the flight further within our own ACC, and the towers within the AOR.

This is on a old Raytheon autotrack 1 system with the most decrepit HMI known to man , and it still manages to get it done.

If your flight is going to leave the ACCs AOR, the flight data section needs to punch a AFTN plan to forward relevant data to the next ACC.

[IO540]

M609 NATS often make a big thing out of selling their super software to other countries. Maybe you should offer to sell yours to them, as it is clearly superior Or perhaps they do have this feature and the union has banned its use

[pmh1234]

I recently bought a German magazine where an article described a german pilot requesting a vfr to ifr conversion. After a lot of discussion he got the ifr clearance only to find when he landed that the atc had filed a compaint that he was vfr in less than approved weather. They then charged him on these ground. The article clearly told to avoid giving any references to the actual weather while waiting for the ifr clearance. If you tell them that you are imc and need the clearance fast you might end up in the same problems as this guy did.

[ShyTorque]

In UK you can fly under IFR in Class G any time you wish, without any clearance whatsoever, irrespective of actual cloudbase / visibility.

It's only a potential problem if you require entry into CAS.

[M609]

Actually, if you suddenly find yourself in IMC inadvertently , the standard NATO procedure (not saying they follow it all the time) is transponder to 7700 and climb to lowest safe altitude ending in '500 and call ATC asap.

I'm not saying it's a bit strict, but might give some insight into why ATC in Germany take it so seriously.

For me as a controller, it's a big difference between "......looks like the weather is below VMC minima further ahead, we request climb to FLXXX DCT to XXX IFR...."

and "......we are IMC need IFR clearence to climb FLXXX dct XXX immediately..."

or when given a negative answer to request for climb: "...unable to remain at XXXXft, climbing to FLXXX, we are solid IMC...."