English Proficiency endorsement
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Englishal wrote
That bolshie attitude may lead you into trouble when you have an accident and your insurance company finds out that you haven't been flying in accordance with the terms of ICAO regulations applying to your licence.
Cusco
If the answer is b or c then I am afraid I'm going to let it expire and never bother to get it revalidated.
Today 05:33
Today 05:33
Cusco
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Is anybody really going to to make a whole legal issue out of a British UK National born and "bread" in the UK, allegedly being unable to speak English whilst the whole of the UK is full of east europeans who hold down jobs and can barely string a few grunts together? A CAA prosecution would surely be laughed out of court as soon as the pilot opened his mouth. As for his need to know "Aviation English" (what ever that brand is) it will have been covered when the FRTOL was done. Any insurance company refusing a claim from a licensed British English speaking FRTOL/PPL/ATPL holder would be wide open to a counter claim for unreasonable terms
MJ's experience is ludicrous jobsworthness
MJ's experience is ludicrous jobsworthness
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If the answer is b or c then I am afraid I'm going to let it expire and never bother to get it revalidated
There is a reason there is no expiry date on the Language proficiency on a UK licence. The currency at Lvl4 is rolling. You are exposed to an Examiner every 2 years by default. If it really bothers you that much then you can either fly with an examiner as part of your 2 year flight and have him sign Lvl6 which I do by default for every person that revalidates with me. Or you can phone PLD up and have a nice conversation in English and they will upgrade you as PLD staff like us examiners are granted Lvl6 assessor.
However unless you are 'badge collecting' with my EP is better than your EP mindset, it makes absolutely no difference to your life if you have Lvl4 or 6 as a UK licence holder.
Interestingly enough FAA puts the English Proficient Endorsement in limitations section of the Airman Certificate.
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Please note that the latest edition of SRG\1119, (1-9-09) clarifies the English language assesment. As I read this ,an examiner can sign "at level 6" for either a test or revalidation by experience. I and others raised this as a problem and the CAA has responded. Everyone should be covered by the JAR two year revalidation process, or until EASA is implemented fully. This is not required for the NPPL, but again watch this space re a possible EASA LPL , possibly replacing the NPPL !!
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That bolshie attitude may lead you into trouble when you have an accident and your insurance company finds out that you haven't been flying in accordance with the terms of ICAO regulations applying to your licence.
I *can* of course fly with an examiner (at expense) but why would I? My 2 year reval is up in May next year, I already exceed reval by experience and have my 1 hr with CRI so why should I now go and fly with a CAA examiner just to prove I can speak english?! Crazy system, I'll phone FCL when I get home and see if they will add it.
I've just read the CAA guidance to examiners on this subject. I really do fail to see why one has to be assessed "as part of a flight test". Why can I not go to an examiner to have my certificate of reval signed and during that period the examiner can endorse me to level 6?!?!?!?!?!?!??!
If the CAA are reading this (which they do) then get a grip will you.
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I *can* of course fly with an examiner (at expense) but why would I? My 2 year reval is up in May next year, I already exceed reval by experience and have my 1 hr with CRI so why should I now go and fly with a CAA examiner just to prove I can speak english?! Crazy system, I'll phone FCL when I get home and see if they will add it.
Anything for a bit of peace and quiet!!!!
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English Proficiency endorsement
I had my biennial instructional flight a few weeks ago and the instructor is an examiner so I'll be interested to see whether his endorsement of my English works. I believe that level six is defined as being a native speaker so no effing chance of like talking wiv them other pilots know wot I mean.
Moderator
I am a Level 6 examiner, and here it has to be done as a separate test and recorded. It's amazing how aggressive some people can become when told they have to do this test, as if it was a personal affront. I'm a native English speaker myself and I had to do it too.
The fluent english speakers need to be able to realise that in certain circumstances being a native speaker can meant that in stressful situations you may start to use colloquialisms that a non native speaker may not understand. There are some accents that others find very difficult, especially without face to face contact.
The test is for converstaional english as well as aviation english, where we play a tape of two non-native speakers, an ATC and a pilot, in a reconstruction of an incident where poor english proficiency and use of colloquialisms has led to major misunderstandings in an emergency situation. The person being tested has to analyse this and say how it could have been communicated better.
At the end of the test people leave saying "Now I understand why everyone needs to do this"
The problem is that where a country has put "proficient in English" without a level CASA insist that I do an English test for them for issue of a C of V. Even though my delegation is only for people applying for a pilot's licence in Australia. So the whole thing is riddled with inconsistancies worldwide.
The fluent english speakers need to be able to realise that in certain circumstances being a native speaker can meant that in stressful situations you may start to use colloquialisms that a non native speaker may not understand. There are some accents that others find very difficult, especially without face to face contact.
The test is for converstaional english as well as aviation english, where we play a tape of two non-native speakers, an ATC and a pilot, in a reconstruction of an incident where poor english proficiency and use of colloquialisms has led to major misunderstandings in an emergency situation. The person being tested has to analyse this and say how it could have been communicated better.
At the end of the test people leave saying "Now I understand why everyone needs to do this"
The problem is that where a country has put "proficient in English" without a level CASA insist that I do an English test for them for issue of a C of V. Even though my delegation is only for people applying for a pilot's licence in Australia. So the whole thing is riddled with inconsistancies worldwide.
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My only gripe is with the way the thing has to be tested. As we all HAVE to have 1 hr with JAA FI every 2 years and HAVE to meet an examiner to get the CofE signed, why not make them the judge as to whether we can speak English to level 4 (i.e. operationally)? That way no one needs worry about having to do flight tests with examiners or visit English language schools ever. If they can't speak decent operational English at the Biennial flight then let the FI NOT sign their logbook.
It is really very easy, but it true British fashion it gets screwed up and that one needs a "flight test" to re-validate their "English Language Rating" to level 6 which is absolute nonsense. Almost as much nonsense as having to have your CofE signed within 3 months of expiry even if you meet the requirements well before - due to a clerical mix up.
I sometimes get the impression that at the CAA there are panels of people who sit around discussing things like this and when something sensible is suggested (like the above) then some old handlebar-moustached chap says "oh no, we couldn't possibly do it like that, it is far too easy and besides those Americans do it that way"......
It is really very easy, but it true British fashion it gets screwed up and that one needs a "flight test" to re-validate their "English Language Rating" to level 6 which is absolute nonsense. Almost as much nonsense as having to have your CofE signed within 3 months of expiry even if you meet the requirements well before - due to a clerical mix up.
I sometimes get the impression that at the CAA there are panels of people who sit around discussing things like this and when something sensible is suggested (like the above) then some old handlebar-moustached chap says "oh no, we couldn't possibly do it like that, it is far too easy and besides those Americans do it that way"......
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Englishal, if you read the latest SRG\1119 (LPC/LST) form, you will find that the wording appears to allow an assesment at level 6 , by an examiner for both tests and revalidation by experience.
I know this is contrary to the notice to examiners, but when I approached the CAA on this, they assumed a "cascade" effect, ie airline TRE/IREs first and then GA following. I am signing page 2 where appropriate for tests and revalidation by experience. As I said above, this will all be forwarded to the EASA world "in due course"
I know this is contrary to the notice to examiners, but when I approached the CAA on this, they assumed a "cascade" effect, ie airline TRE/IREs first and then GA following. I am signing page 2 where appropriate for tests and revalidation by experience. As I said above, this will all be forwarded to the EASA world "in due course"
Chaps and chapesses, why so much heat over such a trivial and unimportant topic? Some people seem to need more to worry about - try learning Mandarin!
I'm an examiner and have so far felt comfortable signing the level 6 section of every native English speaker who's 1119 I have had the pleasure of signing. I'm sure that any other examiner would do the same. Endex.
HFD
I'm an examiner and have so far felt comfortable signing the level 6 section of every native English speaker who's 1119 I have had the pleasure of signing. I'm sure that any other examiner would do the same. Endex.
HFD
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Just to clarify........
Dear Mr ........,
Thank you for your Email dated 20th September. Apologies for the delayed response.
A UK CAA authorised Flight Examiner may carry out an assessment of your Aviation English in a formal environment, not necessarily part of a flight test. They should complete form SRG1199 and submit to Licensing and Training Standards.
Alternatively we can accept a level 6 assessment granted by the FAA. You will need to submit evidence that you have been granted Level 6 by a person approved by the FAA.
Please contact a member of the licensing team on 01293 573700 should you require further assistance.
Kind regards
Ian Saunders
Licensing and Training Standards
Thank you for your Email dated 20th September. Apologies for the delayed response.
A UK CAA authorised Flight Examiner may carry out an assessment of your Aviation English in a formal environment, not necessarily part of a flight test. They should complete form SRG1199 and submit to Licensing and Training Standards.
Alternatively we can accept a level 6 assessment granted by the FAA. You will need to submit evidence that you have been granted Level 6 by a person approved by the FAA.
Please contact a member of the licensing team on 01293 573700 should you require further assistance.
Kind regards
Ian Saunders
Licensing and Training Standards
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A UK CAA authorised Flight Examiner...
I feel another can of worms opening here. Will EASA-FCL sort all this out for good before the ICAO LPE level 4s all run out in 2011?
Moderator
I just got my newly minted Canadian license booklet, and the "LP" is "EN". It makes no mention of a level.
Using my keen English reading skills, I did notice that the section which describes my class "SMELS".
Apparently that decodes to: Single Multi Engine Land Sea. With only 24 available pages in the booklet, I suppose there was no room to actually write out the full text of my "class". People shall just have to refer to my fixed wing flying qualifications by saying "he smels".
Pilot DAR
Using my keen English reading skills, I did notice that the section which describes my class "SMELS".
Apparently that decodes to: Single Multi Engine Land Sea. With only 24 available pages in the booklet, I suppose there was no room to actually write out the full text of my "class". People shall just have to refer to my fixed wing flying qualifications by saying "he smels".
Pilot DAR
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I just got my newly minted Canadian license booklet, and the "LP" is "EN".
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I don't know whether to laugh or cry. In October 2008 I had my BFR with the CFI and remembered to ask him to let the CAA know that I had Level 6 English which he promised to do. Several months later I needed to speak to the CAA and asked the person I was speaking to to check if my proficiency level had been recorded as Level 6. "No" came the reply. I wasn't happy. I checked with the CFI who said the appropriate document was probably amongst those waiting to be sent off so I left it at that. By last October I still had only Level 4. November saw a different CFI, different club doing my biennial check and he too said he would send the appropriate paperwork to the CAA. Knowing that the wheels of the CAA (except in the Medical Dept) can often be brakebound I waited until this morning to check again. Once more I was told by a pleasant young man that I still had only Level 4. I muttered a few quiet mutterings at him (very politely) which made him check the documents once more and what did he find? Correct! The document stating I had Level 6 had been received by them in 2008! Not so much a case of brake-bound but totally absent wheels. The PYG promptly updated my record whilst I was speaking to him.
