VMC, VFR and Correct R/T

[BabyBear]

Originally Posted by trex450

Pretty soon we will be told what accent to speak in.

You mean my instructor was taking the p1ss when he taught me to speak in an Irish accent?

[Saab Dastard]

Let's move the debate in here, as it no longer has relevance to the Dundee thread.

SD

[Crash one]

Captain Stable

Since I seem to be doing quite well at divining your attitude, if you don't mind, I shall carry on. So far I have 100% pass rate.

I would like to know how my drivelings on here relate to my attitude when airborne?

Only two of which actually appear in CAP413. Which two are you proud of? I rest my case.

I fail to understand why I should be proud of any of them. Rest your case as you wish, but you are coming across as intolerant & self opinionated.

I'll let you into a secret. In fact, I'll let the world into a secret. I have'nt read CAP 413.
Now you can really have some fun!

[Jofm5]

Captain Stable:

Add in extra words like "it's the" and you might be misunderstood - when transmitting, you don't hear how your words get to the other end. Did that crackle come just at the wrong moment? Will somebody else mentally fill in the gap incorrectly? Does inserting extra, unnecessary words actually HELP? Of course it doesn't. So why do it?

In general I agree with you but in my copy of CAP413 it states if you dont receive the full transmission uniterrupted you ask for it to be said again. ATC as professionals should be doing this not mentally filling in the gaps.

[Captain Stable]

CAP413 it states if you dont receive the full transmission uniterrupted you ask for it to be said again. ATC as professionals should be doing this not mentally filling in the gaps.

Quite correct. However, the human brain is a funny organ. It fills in the gaps for itself. Someone can be quite clear they heard one thing when someone said something rather different. It's not intentional - it's something the brain does all by itself subconsciously.

For example, today my wife said "Shouldn't you be mowing the lawn?", and what I was quite convinced I heard was "Shouldn't you be sitting down with the Sunday papers?"

air police, can you point me at some document that states the military call is "finals"? Not that I doubt your word, I'd just like to see it for myself. Certainly there used to be more differences between mil. phraseology and civvy, such as "overshoot" vs. "go-around".

With that, thanks for your last post - agree 100%. Just don't ever, EVER remind me again about flared trousers.

[trex450]

"final", "finals" c'mon who gives a monkey's! I am all for prompt, correct rt So which is it? Are you all for correct R/T, or don't you give a monkeys?

I take a lot of pride in my rt although I am the first to admit that occasionally I make mistakes like I am sure everyone does, the important thing is to learn from them. Unfortunately far to many people are too casual, flipant, not sufficiently up to date and most annoyingly not confident enough.

To set the record completly straight I am all for prompt, correct rt but I am not anal enough to give a stuff over someone adding an 's' to a word. Fortunately the vast majority of controllers out there are very professional and able to use their common sense. As for accents, as long as the person's speech is clear it is unimportant although maybe it would be a good idea if we all spoke irish!

[Pace]

To add my bit to this discussion flying VMC or IMC. Flying VMC is MC conditions where you can fly using your eyes, Flying IMC is where MC conditions are such that you have to fly on instruments. That has nothing to do with VFR or IFR which are a set of rules.

A Glider with minimal cloud flying instrumentation and No nav equiptment can be flying in IMC but not to IFR while as we know an aircraft can be flying IFR in VMC conditions.

I would go further it is theoretically possible for a experienced pilot to fly who knows the area really well with good line features to fly VMC with a 300 foot cloudbase and 600 metre vis.

I left Le touquet on an IFR departure hearing a piper cub routing up the coast in those conditions to the UK. The vis and cloudbase picked up halfway across the channel.

So one pilots VMC may not be another pilots VMC. Yes he was in that portion of the flight breaking VFR.


Pace

[fisbangwollop]

AIRPOLICE

On recently landing at Cumbernauld and Prestwick (there's a clue for fisbangwallop about my Mole's ID)

Ah may be I am wrong but a while a go a young "boy in blue" came to my sector looking for a certain aircraft....Flying that aircraft was his Dad, flying his QXC from QL-PK and was wondering if I had spoken to him!!

hmmmm...is Shelock getting close??

[Jucky]

DB6 : CAP 413 (UK civil): Final
JSP 318A (UK military): Finals
(I know it's not JSP 318A any more but that's the one I was familiar with)
Both right in my book.

It is called JSP 552 these days old chap and it is Final, not Finals in this document.

[Squawk7143]

Airpolice

I was taught never to transmit (after clearing it to land/roll/overshoot) when an aircraft was on finals,

I don't remember you being taught that, was that between Tea and Glim laying?

......the last thing a pilot needs in the last few hundred feet is someone babbling in his ear........I don't get it at RAF airfields but civvy FISO and A/G radio operators don't seem to have the same consideration.

Err.. I fly at a fairly busy airport, there is invariably someone "babbling" in my ear on final. Usually others joining, making position reporting calls or even just departing ( commercial) aircraft obtaining departure clearances whilst sitting at the hold. Non of this detracts from my ability to fly the aircraft and focus on the task at hand. ATC don't have to be talking to you for there to be RT chat in your ear. I find it useful to listen to it whilst still focusing on the task at hand. It helps with situational awareness.

Perhaps the reason you don't get it at your RAF Airfield is that your balsa wood bomber has a VHF box and the military toys all have UHF boxes.

[Captain Smithy]

Pace

Can't say I agree at all with your post, especially where you state

"I would go further it is theoretically possible for a experienced pilot to fly who knows the area really well with good line features to fly VMC with a 300 foot cloudbase and 600 metre vis."

Tried it once on a trip through to Prestwick one December morning with an instructor - maintenance flight. Was a good experience but I wouldn't try it again myself. At 90 Knots with 4-5k most of the way, my turning points were only appearing under a minute before my ETAs. Added to that we were squeezed in between the Edinburgh and Glasgow TMAs, any navigational error would have really buggered things up. I quickly learned to understand how people get killed hitting things in that sort of weather - masts, hills etc.

Try driving at 70mph on the motorway in 600m vis. It's not too clever. As for trying to fly in that, visually navigating, well let's just say you'd better have the will written and the funeral booked beforehand.

Smithy

[Final 3 Greens]

Try driving at 70mph on the motorway in 600m vis. It's not too clever.

Done that lots of time and it is easy with the required level of concentration. At 70 mph, things appear at 600 metres around 1/3 of a minute before you get there, probably 2-3 times the amount of time/distance needed to stop.

What is dangerous is patchy fog, when you go rapidly from 600 to 100m. 100m is less than many people's reaction time and car's braking performance.

[Eric T Cartman]

Correct R/T

@ airpolice & Captain Stable
I'm with you all the way on this - quoted from the CAA Safety Sense leaflet :- "The importance of using correct and precise standard RT phraseology and techniques cannot be over-emphasised."

@ Squawk7143
I think what airpolice means is what I was always taught - you don't start asking a pilot who his handling agent is when he's at 500ft on Final

Whilst we are on the subject [& I reckon fisbangwollop will agree ] , it's "Dean Cross" VOR/reporting point not "DeanS Cross"

[Pace]

Captain Smithy

I think you misunderstood my post I was NOT suggesting pilots fly in those conditions but making a point that VMC is operating in conditions where you are controlling the aircraft by visual means rather than IMC where you are controlling the aircraft on instruments.

VFR and IFR are rules plain and simple. the guy in question probably took off from an airfield where he could make a VFR departure legally and was forced down around Le Touquet. he was flying in 600 metre Vis with a 300 foot cloudbase over the sea following the beach.
I heard him halfway over the channel where the cloudbase had increased.
Yes he was in that portion breaking VFR minima but he was flying VMC. He had to be as he wasnt flying IMC

Say the powers that be changed the VFR limits to clear of cloud min vis 600 metres he would have been flying VMC and VFR. Obviously they would never change VFR limits to those figures

Visibility in cloud can vary! from pea soup to quite a distance. Not sure what contitutes cloud other than visible moisture ?

Pace

[JW411]

"Final" - v - "Finals"

What a fascinating (and possibly fatuous) argument. My first 18 years of professional flying was as a member of Mrs Windsor's Transport Command during which we were examined to sometimes tortuous limits. It was always "Finals" - all over the world - everywhere we went.

I took this into airline flying when I left the RAF and continued to use "Finals" wherever I went including Bangladesh, Fiji, Africa, the Atlantic, the Pacific and even Teesside. Nobody ever told me that it was "Final" and not "Finals". I still use "Finals" in my spamcan.

I have even been known (in a flippant moment) to call "Greenals Three Fines" and I have still been cleared to land.

The VMC versus VFR is a very serious discussion and anyone who doesn't understand the difference had better get themselves back to school but "Final" versus "Finals" - give me a break!

[Eric T Cartman]

"Finals" v "Final"

As my father-in-law used to say - "Call me anything you like as long as it's not late for dinner!"

[Final 3 Greens]

JW

Agreed on both points. (You can tell from my handle that I was taught to omit the 's' when I learned in civvy st in the 90s.)

[Captain Stable]

JW, I agree that the final vs. finals debate is not per se terribly important.

It does, however, act as a symptom of a deeper problem - that of getting into bad habits and not doing anything to get out of them. Yes, you were taught to call "finals". As has already been pointed out (thanks, Jucky), terminology has changed. You need to change with it. If you're not adaptable enough to remember to use the correct terminology, what else will you not remember? Do you still request a Flight Information Service?

Yes, I've flown all over the world as well, and I've been flying for getting on for 40 years. But a spot of willy-waving is not relevant to the thread.

It comes down, as so many things do, to professionalism of attitude, to taking a pride in what you do and how you do it. Do you take a pride in doing it with correct terminology throughout, or not? If not, where do you draw the line?

[fisbangwollop]

Come back Vince all is forgiven...who really gives a **** if it's Final or Final's ?????....I for one as an air traffiker would not!!

[Captain Stable]

fisbang, as I've already pointed out, final/finals is not important.

However, in general, it IS important to make an effort to use correct R/T procedure and phraseology throughout.

Nuff said?