Light aircraft down in Dundee
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Fair point, perhaps I should have said 'earlier than this pilot did'. He appeared to head downwind into the town, then turn back into wind leaving only the golf course between the houses.
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VH's latest comments to the press are, unfortunately, exactly what we all predicted, and I stand by my harsh comments from last night.
One of the most important attributes of a pilot is to be able to self-critique and learn from mistakes, so not to repeat them and to become a better, more experienced aviator. If you refuse to even acknowledge that any mistakes were made, even in the face of a pretty unambiguous investigation and a wrecked aircraft, then there really is little hope.
AAIB:
"The reported circumstances of the accident indicate that the engine became starved of fuel."
"The average fuel consumption assumed by the pilot was insufficient to account for operational realities."
VH:
"The key point I would make from the report was that the cause of the engine stopping was not running out of fuel, as was reported at the time."
etc. etc.
One of the most important attributes of a pilot is to be able to self-critique and learn from mistakes, so not to repeat them and to become a better, more experienced aviator. If you refuse to even acknowledge that any mistakes were made, even in the face of a pretty unambiguous investigation and a wrecked aircraft, then there really is little hope.
AAIB:
"The reported circumstances of the accident indicate that the engine became starved of fuel."
"The average fuel consumption assumed by the pilot was insufficient to account for operational realities."
VH:
"The key point I would make from the report was that the cause of the engine stopping was not running out of fuel, as was reported at the time."
etc. etc.
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This raises some pretty fundamental issues. It seems clear to me that Vince should not continue flying. But whether we can rely on the CAA to ensure that happens is a big question.
I've flown with lots of PPLs doing their biennial flight with an instructor for revalidation, and I have (on one occasion) refused to sign someone's logbook because they clearly needed some focused refresher training. But contrast that with car drivers. Once you pass your test you can drive for decades, steadily acquiring bad habits and simultaneously forgetting your training. But I'd argue the chances of killing someone else as a result of bad airmanship with a PPL are significantly less than the chances of killing someone else as a result of bad driving.
It seems to me all eyes should now be on the CAA to see what they do. If there's no action from them, then the message is surely that busting controlled airspace and running out of fuel, and then denying that either of those things happened, are acceptable limits of PPL behaviour. Not a pretty picture.
NS
I've flown with lots of PPLs doing their biennial flight with an instructor for revalidation, and I have (on one occasion) refused to sign someone's logbook because they clearly needed some focused refresher training. But contrast that with car drivers. Once you pass your test you can drive for decades, steadily acquiring bad habits and simultaneously forgetting your training. But I'd argue the chances of killing someone else as a result of bad airmanship with a PPL are significantly less than the chances of killing someone else as a result of bad driving.
It seems to me all eyes should now be on the CAA to see what they do. If there's no action from them, then the message is surely that busting controlled airspace and running out of fuel, and then denying that either of those things happened, are acceptable limits of PPL behaviour. Not a pretty picture.
NS
PPRuNe Bashaholic
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If the press reports are correct about his quotations, there is no way the CAA can give this guy back his licence. He can see no wrong in himself and learn nothing it seems. And I don't think that licence removal should be 'debatable' but necessary to ensure public safety.
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To the extent that the UK CAA are still responsible overall for air safety in the UK I would hope.
The NPPL is devolved to the NPPL Steering Group for licence issue and 'regulation' but I'd imagine they have no legal teeth to remove a licence nor have anything to do with legal action that might be taken against a pilot who breaches ANO regulations.
As the NPPL is granted under authority of Schedule 7 in the ANO, and therefore falling under Part 31 for any licencing action, this gives the CAA every right to claim it as 'their business'.
The NPPL is devolved to the NPPL Steering Group for licence issue and 'regulation' but I'd imagine they have no legal teeth to remove a licence nor have anything to do with legal action that might be taken against a pilot who breaches ANO regulations.
PART 31 POWERS AND PENALTIES
Revocation, suspension and variation of certificates, licences and other documents
228 (1) Subject to paragraphs (5) and (6), the CAA may provisionally suspend or vary any certificate, licence, approval, permission, exemption, authorisation or other document issued, granted or having effect under this Order, pending inquiry into or consideration of the case.
(2) The CAA may, on sufficient ground being shown to its satisfaction after due inquiry, revoke, suspend or vary any such certificate, licence, approval, permission, exemption, authorisation or other document.
Revocation, suspension and variation of certificates, licences and other documents
228 (1) Subject to paragraphs (5) and (6), the CAA may provisionally suspend or vary any certificate, licence, approval, permission, exemption, authorisation or other document issued, granted or having effect under this Order, pending inquiry into or consideration of the case.
(2) The CAA may, on sufficient ground being shown to its satisfaction after due inquiry, revoke, suspend or vary any such certificate, licence, approval, permission, exemption, authorisation or other document.
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Let's not beat around the bush.
He's a loon. A dangerous loon. To all of us in the sky and anyone that's on the ground beneath him.
The sooner his licence is withdrawn, the better.
He's a loon. A dangerous loon. To all of us in the sky and anyone that's on the ground beneath him.
The sooner his licence is withdrawn, the better.
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err are you sure he has had his privilages to fly suspended? In a previous company I worked for one Captain managed to get 8 MOR's in the space of 2 sectors including one runway incursion and an alt bust requiring inventive controlling for noise abatement purposes. He was flying the next day.
Does anyone actually know of anyone who had their ticket pulled? Because i certainly haven't heard of a case apart from that nutter in a R22 who flew outside the tower giving the vickies to a controller he had an issue with. And I don't think he had his license pulled it was just his medical.
Does anyone actually know of anyone who had their ticket pulled? Because i certainly haven't heard of a case apart from that nutter in a R22 who flew outside the tower giving the vickies to a controller he had an issue with. And I don't think he had his license pulled it was just his medical.
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Does anyone actually know of anyone who had their ticket pulled?
I suspect the CAA is wary of pulling a license for "behaviour" without first winning a prosecution, because - on the occassions where the pilot employed a half decent lawyer - they have lost quite a few prosecutions.
Prosecuting pilots for e.g. fuel mismanagement is tricky because it opens a huge can of worms concerning practices widely taught in the PPL training establishment. Get yourself a decent lawyer and you will have the judge saying he wishes he could shut down some flying school...
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I suspect the CAA is wary of pulling a license for "behaviour" without first winning a prosecution, because - on the occassions where the pilot employed a half decent lawyer - they have lost quite a few prosecutions.
Prosecuting pilots for e.g. fuel mismanagement is tricky because it opens a huge can of worms concerning practices widely taught in the PPL training establishment. Get yourself a decent lawyer and you will have the judge saying he wishes he could shut down some flying school...
Prosecuting pilots for e.g. fuel mismanagement is tricky because it opens a huge can of worms concerning practices widely taught in the PPL training establishment. Get yourself a decent lawyer and you will have the judge saying he wishes he could shut down some flying school...
Now, if they recommended action such as retraining for our pilot, and he failed to comply but then flew, I suspect there might be a better case to prove the holder was an unfit person.
I'm sure none of us really wants a fellow aviator to be grounded and all reasonable steps should be taken to ensure that he can continue to fly amongst us, but only if he does so in a safe and competent manner. If that requires lots of help and training, and more importantly, the pilot is willing to play his part and take it on board, then that would be a much better result.
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I'm sure none of us really wants a fellow aviator to be grounded and all reasonable steps should be taken to ensure that he can continue to fly amongst us, but only if he does so in a safe and competent manner. If that requires lots of help and training, and more importantly, the pilot is willing to play his part and take it on board, then that would be a much better result.
I am all for retraining I am all for restrictions even a back ground check through the medical department but he should be given another chance to prove himself and approach aviation in a more knowing and responsible way.
Pace
If that requires lots of help and training, and more importantly, the pilot is willing to play his part and take it on board, then that would be a much better result.
"...He who knows not, and knows not he knows not - he is a fool, shun him."
Self-denial to the point of delusion is not a good foundation for any form of (re-)training.
FBW
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Why should he be given a chance, Pace? He's had sufficient chances already. Any 45hr holder of a PPL (* or indeed NPPL holder - in fact anyone qualified to operate an aircraft) should be competent enough to consistently fly solo cross country without running out of fuel and infringing controlled airspace. If not, then standard would be grossly inadequate. Running out of fuel is as fundamental a sin to an aviator as running aground is to a mariner: entirely avoidable except in a tiny minority of cases.
Having a spirit of adventure does not absolve you from requiring a certain level of competence and common sense. Most worrying is this fellow's attitude, which suggests that he cannot see that he has done anything wrong, would not be receptive to retraining, and is destined to repeat his mistakes if given half a chance. Mistakes in other hobbies may not be a big deal (damn - I've dropped a stitch); mistakes like his in aviation can result in fatalities in the air, on the ground or most likely, himself. A line has to be drawn somewhere and I feel that VH has shown, and continues to show himself to be on the wrong side of it by quite some margin. Flying is fun, but it's not a game.
One thing I am feeling from the report and VH's comments is that he has absolutely no grasp whatsoever of the concept of unusable fuel. His argument seems to be that because there was a small amount of fuel present in the wreckage and at the time of the engine failure, then he could not have run out of fuel. Studying the report might help him understand (wishful thinking I feel). I am not familiar with the aircraft type but I do also wonder if maybe he found a best endurance speed fuel flow value in the manual and then applied that to flying around at high power settings until he ran out of gas.
Having a spirit of adventure does not absolve you from requiring a certain level of competence and common sense. Most worrying is this fellow's attitude, which suggests that he cannot see that he has done anything wrong, would not be receptive to retraining, and is destined to repeat his mistakes if given half a chance. Mistakes in other hobbies may not be a big deal (damn - I've dropped a stitch); mistakes like his in aviation can result in fatalities in the air, on the ground or most likely, himself. A line has to be drawn somewhere and I feel that VH has shown, and continues to show himself to be on the wrong side of it by quite some margin. Flying is fun, but it's not a game.
One thing I am feeling from the report and VH's comments is that he has absolutely no grasp whatsoever of the concept of unusable fuel. His argument seems to be that because there was a small amount of fuel present in the wreckage and at the time of the engine failure, then he could not have run out of fuel. Studying the report might help him understand (wishful thinking I feel). I am not familiar with the aircraft type but I do also wonder if maybe he found a best endurance speed fuel flow value in the manual and then applied that to flying around at high power settings until he ran out of gas.
Last edited by Torque Tonight; 14th Aug 2010 at 13:35. Reason: *
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as running aground is to a mariner: entirely avoidable except in a tiny minority of cases
I'm sure the skipper wasn't doing anything wrong - she had a perfectly good Plan B, which was just to anchor in the channel for a few hours until the tide came in, with the disadvantage of not getting to the pub before closing time - but I was struck by how differently we do things around aeroplanes, like the out-of-dateness of the best available documentation for example.
The NPPL is devolved to the NPPL Steering Group for licence issue and 'regulation' but I'd imagine they have no legal teeth to remove a licence nor have anything to do with legal action that might be taken against a pilot who breaches ANO regulations.
The NPPL Policy and Steering Committee evolve NPPL policy recommendations, but these must be approved by the CAA.
NPLG Ltd processes licence application paperwork for NPPLs with SSEA and/or SLMG Class Ratings, as does the BMAA for NPPLs with Microlight Class Ratings; however the paperwork is despatched to the CAA and licences are only ever 'issued' by the CAA.
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IO540:
Very tantalising. I'd love to know what those are. Do tell!
NS
Prosecuting pilots for e.g. fuel mismanagement is tricky because it opens a huge can of worms concerning practices widely taught in the PPL training establishment
NS
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The CAA/ARE did state a number of years ago that they would prosecute anyone running out of fuel, I believe on the grounds of negligence. As for removing a license on the grounds of behaviour, thats a tricky area, what did they remove Maurice Kirk's for?
Even if VH is sent for re-training would it help? The man comes across as mentally unsuitable to be allowed in an aircraft in the first place. He will probably just use his last foul up to raise his public profile thinking that any publicity is good publicity.
Lets face it if a judge sent him away he'd probably sit in his cell waiting for Algy and Ginger to spring him without another care in the world. The more I read about his stupidity the more I think that some form of psychometric testing might be useful when issuing the first PPL medical, similar to, but simpler than the requirements for the airlines and other commercial operations. "now then Bloggs, tell me about your mother...................
"
SND
Even if VH is sent for re-training would it help? The man comes across as mentally unsuitable to be allowed in an aircraft in the first place. He will probably just use his last foul up to raise his public profile thinking that any publicity is good publicity.
Lets face it if a judge sent him away he'd probably sit in his cell waiting for Algy and Ginger to spring him without another care in the world. The more I read about his stupidity the more I think that some form of psychometric testing might be useful when issuing the first PPL medical, similar to, but simpler than the requirements for the airlines and other commercial operations. "now then Bloggs, tell me about your mother...................
"SND
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Sir Niall Dementia said ;
The CAA/ARE did state a number of years ago that they would prosecute anyone running out of fuel, I believe on the grounds of negligence. As for removing a license on the grounds of behaviour, thats a tricky area, what did they remove Maurice Kirk's for?
For your and anyone else's information Maurice Kirk has not had his licence revoked. In fact he has just been granted a medical by the CAA and is now entitled to fly.
I'm not saying this is a good or a bad thing, just stating the current situation Re. Mr Kirk.
The CAA/ARE did state a number of years ago that they would prosecute anyone running out of fuel, I believe on the grounds of negligence. As for removing a license on the grounds of behaviour, thats a tricky area, what did they remove Maurice Kirk's for?
For your and anyone else's information Maurice Kirk has not had his licence revoked. In fact he has just been granted a medical by the CAA and is now entitled to fly.
I'm not saying this is a good or a bad thing, just stating the current situation Re. Mr Kirk.
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In cases like this I'd want to see another (extended) skills test undertaken with a CAA examiner. That would sort out whether anything had been learnt from the experience.