Pilotless Cessna takes flight

[Lister Noble]

I had a look at starting from behind,although did not try it as I was not too happy with clearance behind etc.,might have another look later today.
Lister

[Scott Diamond]

Wonder if it declared a mayday to ATC

[Whip99]

As you can see from the pic, Coober Pedy is in the middle of the desert, where it gets quite windy. Certainly doesn't help if you aren't on top of things when something goes wrong.

[RatherBeFlying]

Usually the a/c goes walkabout on the apron and chews up a few of its fellows before coming to a halt. It's nice to have a glider towhook, but a tail tiedown can save a lot of grief. Once the engine is started and settled down at 800 rpm, you can untie.

And yes, C-172s handprop just fine.

[bjornhall]

And yes, C-172s handprop just fine.

Does that include the IO-360 powered variants?

[RatherBeFlying]

Does that include the IO-360 powered variants?

Don't know -- all the handpropping I've seen have been carburated engines. RTFM I guess

[blue up]

No starter or handbrake. The rope is wraped round the struts and is tied so that if the aircraft rolls forwards it will tighten the rope and thus stop it from going any further. For the testing phase (ie the day of the video) it was also bolted to the concrete driveway through the skid!

[Captain Smithy]

Some interesting material to read through here. Thanks all.

Still don't know though why you would want to swing something with an electric starter... if it doesn't start then something is wrong, why not just get the problem fixed instead? Rhetorical question of course.

Smithy

[Tinstaafl]

Why? Flat battery, failed bendix, failed starter motor, stripped ring gear, maintenance not available, key start switch broke, in the outback miles from anywhere or anyone, SARwatch going to timeout & no R/T or phone available on the ground, cheaper maintenance elsewhere, overnight fees excessive, on the way to somewhere else, on a promise from the other half for when you get home...**

Handswinging a prop isn't an issue if you do it correctly. Even a stuck bendix can be dealt with if necessary.




** Especially that last one.

[The Heff]

But what actually is the proper method for hand-swinging a prop?

So far its been covered that the basic safety tips are apply parking break, wheel chocks and tie the aircraft down; but no mention has been made about how to safely turn the live propeller without having one's hands sliced off.

[SNS3Guppy]

Does that include the IO-360 powered variants?

No difference at all. Yes, easily handpropped.

But what actually is the proper method for hand-swinging a prop?

So far its been covered that the basic safety tips are apply parking break, wheel chocks and tie the aircraft down; but no mention has been made about how to safely turn the live propeller without having one's hands sliced off.

Perhaps that's because if you do it wrong, you're going to hurt yourself. Propping an airplane is something that you need to be shown; not something you should read about and go try yourself. I can tell you about raising one legand throwing it behind you to draw you out of the way, not curling your fingers or grasping the prop, keeping your upper body straight, stepping back as you prop, and all the other things necessary, but it would be unprofessional and improper to address that in any detail here...because you need someone to go through it in person.

Anything less would be a disservice. Get hands-on instruction, then go try it yourself. This isn't something about which you educate yourself over the internet.

[Piper19]

Somewhat same story happened to this C150 in Antwerp a few years ago
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Cessna-152/0204465/M/
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Cessna-150M/0204227/M/

[BeechNut]

Some interesting material to read through here. Thanks all.

Still don't know though why you would want to swing something with an electric starter... if it doesn't start then something is wrong, why not just get the problem fixed instead? Rhetorical question of course.

Smithy

The "something wrong" can be something as innocuous as sitting too many weeks in a Canadian winter without flying due to foul weather. And when time comes to fly, the battery is flat.

So you hand swing it, and once it is running, go flying for an hour to top up the battery. It's much less trouble than opening the baggage door and bulkhead (where the battery is on my Sundowner) to boost the battery. In my case there's always a qualified pilot at the controls with feet firmly on the brakes, and throttle just cracked enough so she'll catch.

An O-360 is a fair bit of work to swing though... not for wimps.

Beech

[Lightning6]

We're talking Oz here not Canada...If you're a spam-can flyer it's unlikely you've had any training in prop swinging, this chap obviously didn't, the 'got to get home' syndrome is not an excuse, the pilot obviously left the parking brakes off (Inefficient as they are) and had more than 1/4" power set or the aircraft wouldn't have been able to take off.

As for an hour bimble about...If there were any serious problem, anything could happen.

If there is a problem starting an aircraft with an electric starter, and that's the only sort you've flown (no prop swinging experience) then leave it on the ground and get it sorted, unless you're an aircraft engineer.

Common sense innit?

[hatzflyer]

2 of my aircraft are hand start. There is nothing to be scared off.
Having said that I agree entirely with Guppy about learning how to do it properly.
Hand propping anything up to 300 hp is reletively easy and safe, 6pots are slightly trickier, due to the compression positions,as are 3 bladed props.

As with all things aviation, correct training,current practice and good procedures minimise risk. Short cuts kill you

[SNS3Guppy]

Common sense innit?

Not if you're stuck somewhere and there's no other option. Knowing how to start an airplane without the starter motor is as important to a student pilot in a Cessna 152 or 172 as it is in a J-3 cub. It's a basic skill, and should be taught as part of propeller and engine handling skills.

How could a student ever pull an engine through if the student hasn't been properly taught? How could the student ever be considered schooled in pulling the engine through at all, if the student hasn't been properly taught to hand prop? The same precautions, techniques, and practices apply.

A R-985 is easy enough to handprop if done properly. I presently work with an individual who is without a medical certificate at the moment; he made an error in handpropping his propeller and was struck in the head. His propeller was on a twin commanche, and it was a low prop, which requires special care to prevent leaning into the propeller during the downstroke. To compound his problem, he's fairly tall. A nice gentleman, he doesn't remember what he did wrong because he doesn't remember anything at all. He was at a remote location, and managed to drag himself part way onto a structure before collapsing. Law enforcement officials later found him in a coma...and he stayed in that coma for a time before recovering.

He hopes to get his medical back soon. He's not an inexperienced pilot, but setting aside the particulars of his incident as being unrecoverable due to his memory loss...nobody is immune from being hurt handpropping a propeller. It's a safe enough activity, and an easy one, but demands respect. Accordingly, no competent instructor should ever consider letting a student go who hasn't been properly schooled in the handling of a propeller.

An O-360 is a fair bit of work to swing though... not for wimps.

An 0-360 really isn't any different when it comes to handpropping than a C-80 or an 0-320. It's a small piston engine, and the secret isn't in how hard the prop is swung, but how the engine is prepared (on the compression stroke, engine primed, mag on, brakes set, tail tied, chocked, throttle cracked, mixture set, and engine position on the impulse coupling).

So you hand swing it, and once it is running, go flying for an hour to top up the battery. It's much less trouble than opening the baggage door and bulkhead (where the battery is on my Sundowner) to boost the battery.

While this is true, one must consider the circumstance. If it's simply a dead battery, then one should investigate the cause before one elects to ignore the cause and press on. If you're stuck in the middle of nowhere and have no choice...that's one thing. If you're simply too lazy to remove the battery and charge and test it properly...that's another matter.

Bear in mind that running the airplane isn't a substitute for charging the battery, and your electrical system was never intended to be used for charging the battery. Keeping it topped when it's in good working order, yes. Recharging it, no.

A discharged battery takes a higher charging current, which means greater demand on the alternator/generator, and a higher temperature increase in wiring and the battery. In some systems this can cause battery thermal damage, and in nicads, can cause a thermal runaway...I have seen a thermal runaway melt through the underside of an airplane, and i've seen lead terminals melted off batteries, before.

If the dead battery is caused by a short, you're feeding the short and setting yourself up for a fire. Several nights ago one of our airplanes caught fire just after takeoff as the result of a short. Unfortunately a failed circuit breaker didn't do it's job: circuit breakers are there to protect wiring not components, and it didn't stop the wiring from burning...which melted surrounding wiring, and soon caused multiple shorts that accelerated the problem...eventually burning out a good share of the wiring runs and associated nearby materials, throughout the airplane. This occurred at night in a remote area over unfriendly terrain. The crew was able to get turned around and landed again...and bailed out of the cockpit choking and coughing from the smoke.

Take care that you don't ignore the warning signs the airplane is giving you. The airplane will talk to you, often giving you subtle hints about what's to come. Your first sign of a catastrophic failure may be a little oil or fuel leaking or seeping, and it may be the only warning you get. An airplane caught fire while I approached an airport to land several years ago, and the slightest hint of burning insulation was the only warning I had before the cockpit was engulfed in smoke, and I couldn't breathe. I ignored that warning, thinking it was just my imagination. When I was over the airport (fortunately) in an overhead break, I had no doubt that I was on fire, and by the time I touched down, I coudln't see anything in the cockpit, or breathe.

Don't set yourself up to be in that position. Perhaps the dead battery really is a dead battery, but perhaps it's wrought on by something else. Your best bet is to remove the battery, inspect and test it, charge it, and reinstall it, and not fly until you've determined the cause of the power loss. Even if you know the cause (a master switch has been left on over night, for example, and the electric gyro has drained the battery), you're still better off removing the battery before you do any charging. The wiring in your aircraf was never intended for recharging a depleted battery.

Of course, you always have the option of flying home with no battery, removing it there, and charging it away from the aircraft.

Don't simply assume that the battery just needs a little charge and it will be good to go...that's often not the case, and even if it is...the routine act of charging it in situ can cause anything from equipment damage to corrosion from boiling or spilling electrolyte or gassing from the battery during the depleted charging process, to the rare-but-possible explosion, to say nothing of filling your engine compartment or empennage with flammable hydrogen gasses, and exposing avionics and other equipment to potential voltage and current threats.

Regardless of whether you ever do need to handprop, one should still learn the proper technique; it's a basic skill of aircraft handling that should be common to all airmen who fly piston powered propeller driven aircraft.

[cessna-kevin]

Good heavans im a bit suprised by all of this, during training at egka my instructor colin c often said let go of the controls which i then did and the aircraft would fly better by itself.

[blue up]

There are infront-of proppers and behind-prop swingers. Depends somewhat on your favoured method, the angle of the blade to your feet (Knee slicer?), and whether there is something to hang onto. In post 27, I've gone the behind-prop since there is something to hang onto, the throttle and fuel tap are there and it is easier to swing a Limbach from behind the port side if you are right-handed.

I've always thought that parking brakes are there for the same reason as fuel gauges. Decoration only.

Anyone feel brave enough to video "the correct way to swing" and stick it up on a video site? I must admit that I was self-taught after watching a couple of videos on youtube.

[hatzflyer]

Thats probably not wise as there could be a legal liability from any such post which is beyond the control of the poster!

Anyway, as someone that is in practice and has taught others, I don't think it is practical to put it on video.
There is no facility for interaction between the teacher and the person being taught. Therefor the teacher has no way of knowing if the person being taught has taken all the information on board and getting it wrong could easily kill some-one.

I strongly suggest that this is a case of one to one hands on teaching.

edited...the best place to get advice in the UK is through the LAA coaching scheme. They do courses.

[Mark1234]

Aside from hand propping, and other comments on the flat battery scenario, I also seem to recall from somewhere that if there's not enough juice in the battery to 'excite' the alternator field, that the alternator won't actually be able to generate charge anyway. Different if you've got a generator mind you.