Norwich Airspace Grab
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Stephen,
I do agree with your list of things that Norwich could do to be more friendly to GA.
However, some of us in the area are not interested in instrument approaches etc. and just want to fly around the area. These proposals will make it more difficult. Why should we be denied this just because Norwich wants to commandeer the airspace for a dwindling number of commercial flights.
I can vist a number of local airfields and land free if I uplift some fuel (which is cheaper than Norwich). Why would I want to go to Norwich? They have priced themselves out of the GA market. Today a PA28 was charged the following:
£27 odd landing fee.
£10 handling fee.
£4 ish airport tax.
All in it was circa £40 plus VAT including handling.
Old Buckenham charge about this for an annual membership and then all landings are free for a year.
I believe that Norwich airport is owned and run by the council. In my experience this means that there is an extremely inefficient operation with little regard for giving value for money. Giving them rights to the airspace will be expensive for users and ratepayers and will provide a minimal contribution to air safety, but they probably couldn't care as they are council run and value for money is hardly on their radarscreen.
ZA
I do agree with your list of things that Norwich could do to be more friendly to GA.
However, some of us in the area are not interested in instrument approaches etc. and just want to fly around the area. These proposals will make it more difficult. Why should we be denied this just because Norwich wants to commandeer the airspace for a dwindling number of commercial flights.
I can vist a number of local airfields and land free if I uplift some fuel (which is cheaper than Norwich). Why would I want to go to Norwich? They have priced themselves out of the GA market. Today a PA28 was charged the following:
£27 odd landing fee.
£10 handling fee.
£4 ish airport tax.
All in it was circa £40 plus VAT including handling.
Old Buckenham charge about this for an annual membership and then all landings are free for a year.
I believe that Norwich airport is owned and run by the council. In my experience this means that there is an extremely inefficient operation with little regard for giving value for money. Giving them rights to the airspace will be expensive for users and ratepayers and will provide a minimal contribution to air safety, but they probably couldn't care as they are council run and value for money is hardly on their radarscreen.
ZA
Join Date: Oct 2005
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The MD at Norwich airport, Elliot Summers, seems to ignore the fact that he is driving custom away from this little airport with over regulation. I have not landed there for several years because of their anti GA stance.
I was also a regular user of the link to Amsterdam for long distance flights but when they introduced the airport development fee I voted with my feet and now use Stansted. Norwich airport has a very limited population to service and the management are never going to increase their movements with the sort of tactics they currently employ.
They are very lucky they have the offshore oil industry helicopter traffic. They seemed to have messed up the Flybe opportunity.
I was also a regular user of the link to Amsterdam for long distance flights but when they introduced the airport development fee I voted with my feet and now use Stansted. Norwich airport has a very limited population to service and the management are never going to increase their movements with the sort of tactics they currently employ.
They are very lucky they have the offshore oil industry helicopter traffic. They seemed to have messed up the Flybe opportunity.
Join Date: Jan 2003
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Eventually there will just be a big empty airfield with a few scheduled and few charter movements - that will be deemed success from Norwich Airport Management people.
It's a great shame. As I have said before - the place should be a hugely busy Eurohub but unfortunately - it's never going to happen.
Which is why the airspace grab is even more pointless.............
Arc
It's a great shame. As I have said before - the place should be a hugely busy Eurohub but unfortunately - it's never going to happen.
Which is why the airspace grab is even more pointless.............
Arc
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goatface
"It's my understanding....", "and this is only what I've been told"...., "Despite the rumour that the airport is allegedly......, "allegedly simply refuse to listen"
Not the ideal statements to make if you are objecting, methinks !
Zulu Alpha
Omniport is the majority owner (80.1%) of Norwich Airport, which it acquired in March 2004 from Norwich City Council and Norfolk County Council, who retain a minority share.
Phil Space
"The MD at Norwich airport seems to ignore the fact that he is driving custom away from this little airport with over regulation. I have not landed there for several years because of their anti GA stance."
Looks like the policy is working then !
"It's my understanding....", "and this is only what I've been told"...., "Despite the rumour that the airport is allegedly......, "allegedly simply refuse to listen"
Not the ideal statements to make if you are objecting, methinks !
Zulu Alpha
Omniport is the majority owner (80.1%) of Norwich Airport, which it acquired in March 2004 from Norwich City Council and Norfolk County Council, who retain a minority share.
Phil Space
"The MD at Norwich airport seems to ignore the fact that he is driving custom away from this little airport with over regulation. I have not landed there for several years because of their anti GA stance."
Looks like the policy is working then !
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Off watch,
Thank you I hadn't realised
Is there still a subsidy from the councils and any idea how much?
ZA
Thank you I hadn't realised
Omniport is the majority owner (80.1%) of Norwich Airport, which it acquired in March 2004 from Norwich City Council and Norfolk County Council, who retain a minority share.
ZA
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The Omniport website claims
Google maps suggests it is only 69.8 miles from Norwich airport to Stansted.
Norwich International Airport serves the whole of East Anglia - a potential catchment area of up to 4 million people and it is over 90 miles from its nearest competing airport (London Stansted).
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Zulu Alpha - sorry, no idea about subsidies - maybe someone with access to the council's published accounts could answer that ?
TomTom Nav quotes 91.3 miles as quickest road journey distance, Norwich to Stansted, & 84.3 miles as the shortest so I think their claim is valid. ( I can set it for cycle or walking distances but no provision for tractors
TomTom Nav quotes 91.3 miles as quickest road journey distance, Norwich to Stansted, & 84.3 miles as the shortest so I think their claim is valid. ( I can set it for cycle or walking distances but no provision for tractors
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50 miles - 70 miles - 170 miles makes no odds...........The Stansted thing is just a red herring - the markets they serve are light years apart..................
- as is the mindset of the operators................... or maybe not 'cause GA is not welcomed at Stansted either
Maybe the Norwich Operators see the airport as their own private plaything - sort of like a kids railway set..................and now we need some more track to run our single clockwork engine on............
Arc
- as is the mindset of the operators................... or maybe not 'cause GA is not welcomed at Stansted either
Maybe the Norwich Operators see the airport as their own private plaything - sort of like a kids railway set..................and now we need some more track to run our single clockwork engine on............
Arc
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I learned flying at Norwich.... sad to hear all this.
Did anyone bother to write to the MD or the new majority owner and ask WHY as well as about their mid term plans for the airport? It seems to me it's the ideal training area and a minimalist hub at the same time.
Perhaps the intention is to run it down to sell the land for housing?
Did anyone bother to write to the MD or the new majority owner and ask WHY as well as about their mid term plans for the airport? It seems to me it's the ideal training area and a minimalist hub at the same time.
Perhaps the intention is to run it down to sell the land for housing?
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I fly close to Norwich, certainly close enough to be affected by this. My flying is ususally weekends and I have never seen another aircraft in the sky when Ive been close to them.
I have had several bo****kings from them for alleged infringments, wrong reporting etc.( as explained on other threads no need to repeat here).
If they are like that now, beware any one flying anywhere in eastern England in the future!
My experience of Norwich atc is such that I now fly as close to their airspace as is sensible but never speak to them.
I have had several bo****kings from them for alleged infringments, wrong reporting etc.( as explained on other threads no need to repeat here).
If they are like that now, beware any one flying anywhere in eastern England in the future!
My experience of Norwich atc is such that I now fly as close to their airspace as is sensible but never speak to them.
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I'm a simple 'ol country boy,but!
Unless I've understood all this incorrectly,we are expected to send our opposition/objection comments to the people who are actually applying for the extended airspace,ie Norwich International Airport.
In all other planning applications in the UK,the objections are sent to the organisation that will ultimately decide on the proposal,eg,Planning Dept at the local authority etc.
So why can't we do the same here,send our replies to the CAA and Military?
Sorry if I've misread the info.
Lister
In all other planning applications in the UK,the objections are sent to the organisation that will ultimately decide on the proposal,eg,Planning Dept at the local authority etc.
So why can't we do the same here,send our replies to the CAA and Military?
Sorry if I've misread the info.
Lister
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Norwich needs:-
Good primary and secondary radar.
Sufficient trained and experienced controllers able to interpret that radar.
It is my belief they already have both.From my experience of operating both heavy commercial air transport and light aircraft to and from NWI I do not believe they have a case for any further controlled airspace given the very low level of movements they have.If they have an issue with poor airmanship from the military that needs to be addressed by their management and the military at the highest level.VBR Stampe
Good primary and secondary radar.
Sufficient trained and experienced controllers able to interpret that radar.
It is my belief they already have both.From my experience of operating both heavy commercial air transport and light aircraft to and from NWI I do not believe they have a case for any further controlled airspace given the very low level of movements they have.If they have an issue with poor airmanship from the military that needs to be addressed by their management and the military at the highest level.VBR Stampe
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I have no problems with Norwich Controllers at all - they do a great job and manage us all very well when we are flying around locally. Actually I find them really helpful so lets not confuse two issues here.
The issue is why Norwich need the airspace they are trying to grab. So far from what I have read here no one would object if there was a valid reason for the requirement - there isn't as far as we are all aware and that is why we're all so vocal about it I think....................no problems with a safety argument - but it's not proven (not even close)
Lister - I think we are supposed to complain to NATS and we can do that via the LAA I think.
Arc
The issue is why Norwich need the airspace they are trying to grab. So far from what I have read here no one would object if there was a valid reason for the requirement - there isn't as far as we are all aware and that is why we're all so vocal about it I think....................no problems with a safety argument - but it's not proven (not even close)
Lister - I think we are supposed to complain to NATS and we can do that via the LAA I think.
Arc
...I have never seen another aircraft in the sky when Ive been close to them.
I have had several bo****kings from them for alleged infringments, wrong reporting etc.
My experience of Norwich atc is such that I now fly as close to their airspace as is sensible but never speak to them.
I have had several bo****kings from them for alleged infringments, wrong reporting etc.
My experience of Norwich atc is such that I now fly as close to their airspace as is sensible but never speak to them.
Cheers,
LXGB
niknak
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Lister,
Norwich are responsible for all costs, therefore the CAA dictate that all responses are sent to Norwich for them to collate and forward to the authority.
The applicant is responsible for ensuring that all local airfields, operators, county/local & parish councils and any other interested parties are;
1. Sent a copy of the of the final applicaton documentwhich is to be submitted to the CAA/SAP (in this case some 50 or so pages) together with a response form asking for their comments/approvals/opposition (sent to 250 or so parties).
2. A month before the closing date, sent a reminder to those who haven't responded (the majority).
3. Two weeks before the closing date, ring everyone who hasn't responded (the majority) asking for their response (yes or no), if a message has to be left on voicemail, the applicant has to ring again until they talk to a human being, print their response and lodge it with the final documents.
Thereafter, every response is collated and sent to the CAA.
There are checks and balances in place, imposed and regulated by the CAA, to ensure that the applicant is behaving in an impartial manner with the appropriate penalties if it can be proved beyond doubt that they didn't.
Norwich are responsible for all costs, therefore the CAA dictate that all responses are sent to Norwich for them to collate and forward to the authority.
The applicant is responsible for ensuring that all local airfields, operators, county/local & parish councils and any other interested parties are;
1. Sent a copy of the of the final applicaton documentwhich is to be submitted to the CAA/SAP (in this case some 50 or so pages) together with a response form asking for their comments/approvals/opposition (sent to 250 or so parties).
2. A month before the closing date, sent a reminder to those who haven't responded (the majority).
3. Two weeks before the closing date, ring everyone who hasn't responded (the majority) asking for their response (yes or no), if a message has to be left on voicemail, the applicant has to ring again until they talk to a human being, print their response and lodge it with the final documents.
Thereafter, every response is collated and sent to the CAA.
There are checks and balances in place, imposed and regulated by the CAA, to ensure that the applicant is behaving in an impartial manner with the appropriate penalties if it can be proved beyond doubt that they didn't.