Syndicate insurance with low hour member
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Join Date: Jul 2009
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Syndicate insurance with low hour member
A group of 4 of us are looking at buying a Chipmunk in Australia, about to have our first get-together to discuss the purchase.
However I'm still training towards my PPL while the rest of the group are experienced. I have no intention of flying it until everyone else is happy, but I'm curious as to how insurance would work for someone with low hours. Will it jack the premiums up, and is there a number of hours under which insurance just isn't avaiable?
Had a bit of a google and read of some of the local insurers, but didn't find anything concrete. Would like to have an idea before the meeting - seemed like the right place to ask!
However I'm still training towards my PPL while the rest of the group are experienced. I have no intention of flying it until everyone else is happy, but I'm curious as to how insurance would work for someone with low hours. Will it jack the premiums up, and is there a number of hours under which insurance just isn't avaiable?
Had a bit of a google and read of some of the local insurers, but didn't find anything concrete. Would like to have an idea before the meeting - seemed like the right place to ask!
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In our tailwheel L4 Cub group,the usual excess in case of damage is £500,
( the pilot in charge pays first £500 of any claim) but pilots with less than 100 hrs total time would pay £750 until they reach 100 hrs.
I think the premium did not change because of my initial low hours.
Lister
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We have check pilots in the group,and any new member has a flight check before they are allowed to fly the aircraft.
( the pilot in charge pays first £500 of any claim) but pilots with less than 100 hrs total time would pay £750 until they reach 100 hrs.
I think the premium did not change because of my initial low hours.
Lister
added
We have check pilots in the group,and any new member has a flight check before they are allowed to fly the aircraft.
Last edited by Lister Noble; 15th Jul 2009 at 07:01.
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Find out what the differences are and pay accordingly. When I joined a group straight after my PPL but the Insurance did not go up provided I did 10 hours with an instructor or pilot with extensive experience on type. I then had a greater excess until I got to 100h.
Rod1
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Had a similar issue in our group where a new member did not yet have a PPL (although obtained his PPL very shortly after buying his share).
Our insurers advised that adding a pilot with less than 100 hours (but with a PPL) would increase premiums by about 10% but that a pre-PPL pilot would result in an "astronomical" increase.
With the agreement of the individual involved, he did not command the aircraft (or receive instruction in it) until he had his PPL. He also reimbursed the group for the additional 10% premium.
Obviously every insurer and group will be different - would be worth discussing the options in detail with your broker.
As a sidenote to this, the new member in question at the time had 55 hours in a Cessna 152 and about 65 hours in a CTLS aircraft. Picture both side by side and compare the performance - most would say they are pretty comparable and even that the CTLS took more skill to fly. However, his CTLS time did not count towards the 100 hour minimum as the insurers did not consider it to be "fixed wing piston" time...............
Our insurers advised that adding a pilot with less than 100 hours (but with a PPL) would increase premiums by about 10% but that a pre-PPL pilot would result in an "astronomical" increase.
With the agreement of the individual involved, he did not command the aircraft (or receive instruction in it) until he had his PPL. He also reimbursed the group for the additional 10% premium.
Obviously every insurer and group will be different - would be worth discussing the options in detail with your broker.
As a sidenote to this, the new member in question at the time had 55 hours in a Cessna 152 and about 65 hours in a CTLS aircraft. Picture both side by side and compare the performance - most would say they are pretty comparable and even that the CTLS took more skill to fly. However, his CTLS time did not count towards the 100 hour minimum as the insurers did not consider it to be "fixed wing piston" time...............
Mind you, I'm not sure that either is particularly good preparation for a Chipmunk which is a lovely aeroplane, but a bit different to either of those in terms of engine management, ergonomics, handling....
You might make your insurance company much happier by declaring, say, that all pilots have to have 10 hours on type before flying other than with a more experienced syndicate member in the other seat.
G
You might make your insurance company much happier by declaring, say, that all pilots have to have 10 hours on type before flying other than with a more experienced syndicate member in the other seat.
G
Flying Chemist
I was in a partnership 3 three other pilots in a C 180 on floats. I have a lot of float time but the other partners only had brand new float ratings. We got two quotes from the insurance broker. One for a partnership with 4 partners with my experience and one for the actual situation of 1 experienced and 3 inexperienced pilots. The later quote was about 50 % higher. I then paid a contribution equal to 1/4 of the all experienced pilot quote and the other partners split the rest of the premium.
My experienced is that for light aircraft (especially other than very common Cessna's and Pipers) insurance adjusters do not seem to be very knowlegable.
What is safe and sensable and what the insurance guys want are not necessarily the same. For a relatively unusual aircraft like the Chipmunk it is essential you get instruction from an experienced instructor with lots of time on type. There is more to a checkout than just getting good enough to not crash. An experienced instructor will provide invaluable operating tips, operating pitfalls, maintainance advice etc.
You mentioned your partners are experienced but did not say if they were experienced on type. If they have no chipmunk time than they will need the same training as you, although probably just not as much of it.
I was in a partnership 3 three other pilots in a C 180 on floats. I have a lot of float time but the other partners only had brand new float ratings. We got two quotes from the insurance broker. One for a partnership with 4 partners with my experience and one for the actual situation of 1 experienced and 3 inexperienced pilots. The later quote was about 50 % higher. I then paid a contribution equal to 1/4 of the all experienced pilot quote and the other partners split the rest of the premium.
My experienced is that for light aircraft (especially other than very common Cessna's and Pipers) insurance adjusters do not seem to be very knowlegable.
What is safe and sensable and what the insurance guys want are not necessarily the same. For a relatively unusual aircraft like the Chipmunk it is essential you get instruction from an experienced instructor with lots of time on type. There is more to a checkout than just getting good enough to not crash. An experienced instructor will provide invaluable operating tips, operating pitfalls, maintainance advice etc.
You mentioned your partners are experienced but did not say if they were experienced on type. If they have no chipmunk time than they will need the same training as you, although probably just not as much of it.
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Thanks for the views, all. I've a much better grasp of the situation now but it looks like alot will come down to how the insurer sees a Chipmunk. There's a few (>100) in the country so hopefully it won't be too bad.
At least one of the other 3 had reasonable time on type, and one doesn't. My time is all in Jabiru 160s so far, so hopefully I don't get wacked by the CTLS-like problem. Thanks for the type comments too, I'll definately chase up an experienced instructor on the mainland and go for a bit of a flying holiday when the PPL's done.
At least one of the other 3 had reasonable time on type, and one doesn't. My time is all in Jabiru 160s so far, so hopefully I don't get wacked by the CTLS-like problem. Thanks for the type comments too, I'll definately chase up an experienced instructor on the mainland and go for a bit of a flying holiday when the PPL's done.
Regardless of legalities, I don't think that you should underestimate the differences between a Jabiru and a Chipmunk - they're from completely different eras and design philosophies.
Regardless of insurance, you'll need a resonable number of hours with an experienced pilot on type in the other seat.
If you are looking for instructors, again make sure that they know the Chipmunk well - it's a very different beastie to the normal run of Piper and Cessna singles that most instructors will be familiar with. (Much more fun as well mind you.) An instructor who umpty-thousand hours teaching on modern nosewheel singles, but no vintage aircraft time and no tailwheel time is just not going to be up to training somebody to fly a Chipmunk. If the local regulations permit it, a 400hr PPL with 200 of those hours on Chipmunks will almost certainly do a much better job.
G
Regardless of insurance, you'll need a resonable number of hours with an experienced pilot on type in the other seat.
If you are looking for instructors, again make sure that they know the Chipmunk well - it's a very different beastie to the normal run of Piper and Cessna singles that most instructors will be familiar with. (Much more fun as well mind you.) An instructor who umpty-thousand hours teaching on modern nosewheel singles, but no vintage aircraft time and no tailwheel time is just not going to be up to training somebody to fly a Chipmunk. If the local regulations permit it, a 400hr PPL with 200 of those hours on Chipmunks will almost certainly do a much better job.
G
