The value of NOTAMs?
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Not sure that is the reason for the NOTAM, as the one local to me (Leuchars) ends tonight, but flying around Dundee yesterday there was bugger all activity from Leuchars - indeed it was closed - and ATC at Dundee confirmed nothing was happening. So yes, most NOTAMs are bollocks. The problem is the important ones are very important but hidden in amongst all the crap.
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I think there is a googd reason for issuing such a NOTAM. If there will be an accident caused by military (or whoever "official" not flying by the rules) they can say: the civilian pilot did not pay attention to the NOTAM. 
Instant alibi?
Instant alibi?
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So yes, most NOTAMs are bollocks. The problem is the important ones are very important but hidden in amongst all the crap.
Fortunately, if one does a narrow route briefing (rather then the old style area briefing) and sticks to one's planned route when actually flying, notams are not such a huge deal.
I cannot believe I am the only pilot who can read (I am a foreigner so maybe??) but it doesn't take a lot of time to pick out the nasty ones.
INTENSIVE LIGHT ACFT
BTW that famous prosecuted Eastbourne TRA busting pilot from Belgium(?) did get notams, but reportedly diverted off his planned route, presumably to have a look at something... That's why I get the NRB with a 20nm track width instead of 10nm.
For pilots who just want to go for an aimless random bimble, it is a lot harder. They really do have to read through a lot more garbage.
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DB6:
It was ever thus. NOTAMs are about planned activity. It doesn't mean it will happen. The NOTAMs in question were clearly a standard issue which may not have been able to account for local variations. That's true of all NOTAMs. Doesn't mean they should be ignored. Just that you have to accept that when you read the NOTAMs only a few - if any - will apply to your particular flight. Like I say, it was ever thus. But as gpn01 says, this one rather smacks of a misguided a**e-covering exercise.
NS
Not sure that is the reason for the NOTAM, as the one local to me (Leuchars) ends tonight, but flying around Dundee yesterday there was bugger all activity from Leuchars - indeed it was closed - and ATC at Dundee confirmed nothing was happening. So yes, most NOTAMs are bollocks. The problem is the important ones are very important but hidden in amongst all the crap.
NS
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I flew south to an airshow on Sat, a short hop to another on Sun then home. Narrow route brief produced 25 pages of crap and a quarter if a page of useful information.
This really does need to be put into a more readable format.
If a pilot was taken to court for not acting on a notam I bet a smart lawyer could convince a jury that it is mostly unreadable gobbledegook and would bear no force in law.
DO.
This really does need to be put into a more readable format.
If a pilot was taken to court for not acting on a notam I bet a smart lawyer could convince a jury that it is mostly unreadable gobbledegook and would bear no force in law.
DO.
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does anyone else think that it would be much better to have some way of publishing the places you are physically not allowed to fly?
For example on 26-28th June there is one at Biggin Hill.
There is apparently a way to detect TRAs from the data stream by looking at one of the headers, and I think this is what some of the 3rd party graphical presentation sites (e.g. dsc.net) used to do.
The curious thing is what happened before the internet? I started flying in 2000 and nobody taught me about notams. The school printed off some local ones on a piece of paper. This is OK for a local burger run but what did pilots do when flying say 500-1000nm?
If IFR (airways) you can get away with it because ATC won't send you through a closed area. You just need to phone the airport(s) to make sure they are open, etc.
If VFR, I suspect people just didn't care.
The internet based system makes is easy to generate all kinds of garbage.
But if one gets the NRB, finding the notams that actually prohibit flight is not hard at all.
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The curious thing is what happened before the internet?
The school would print off the Notams (ususally 3-5 pages) and pin them to the notice board. Then, they would pin on top a raggedy torn piece of paper saying "No royal flight today" or occasionally "Royal flight today". (The 3-5 pages was for the whole UK and might be compared with the 12+ pages of today's 'area brief').
If there was a purple airway, one would certainly plot it out to see if there might be a conflict. The Notams in those days were hand compiled, concise, and relevant.
We certainly did read the rest of the Notams, but time pressure prior to flight often made that a presumptory affair. A huge breakthrough came at the end of the 90's when the same hand crafted Notam report became available at home over the new fangled Internet allowing every Notam (No need to say 'relevant' because in those hand crafted days they were all relevant) to be studied properly.
Then of course the hand crafted Notams were snatched away to be replaced by the present bureacratic shambles.
Strange how reminiscent of those far-off days the present 'Lockheed Martin' flight service is. The briefer plots your route and checks for Notams. He or she advises you that there are no TFR's close to your route, or makes sure you understand if there are. Then he or she goes through the rest saying "are you interested in x or y?", constantly filtering for relevance. Just like our old, hand compiled, Notams back home.
Still, presumably the present UK system costs the UK taxpayer far less money than either the old hand crafted system or (pro rata) the spendthrift Americans' private FSS contract. Obviously.
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Benson over WE
NorthSouth: Flew past Benson last night about 6.30pm talking to F'boro & asked if Benson were open & I should talk to them. They said there was probably no point - they'd given no response all day.
So what else is there to do? Keep out of the ATZ, keep eyes out & hope F'boro & are able to spot things for you?!?
BTW, the reams of heli traffic to/from Silverstone & Ascot this last week into the NW London area has been far more significant, although most were indeed on frequency & giving excellent reports of what they were up to.
Do these UAS/AEF flights contact F'boro or other civvie LARS when straying from their ATZ's?
So what else is there to do? Keep out of the ATZ, keep eyes out & hope F'boro & are able to spot things for you?!?
BTW, the reams of heli traffic to/from Silverstone & Ascot this last week into the NW London area has been far more significant, although most were indeed on frequency & giving excellent reports of what they were up to.
Do these UAS/AEF flights contact F'boro or other civvie LARS when straying from their ATZ's?
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David Viewing's post reinforces what I think about "progress" i.e. the internet has merely facilitated the easy distribution of all kinds of junk, from porn to junk notams.
Why? Because it's "free".
The old system would have never worked for pilots who seriously go places. So, did the jails fill up with pilots who, after a 500nm flight from some dodgy foreign country, busted some TRA? I don't think so. Why not?
One answer might be that because the buck has been passed firmly to the pilot obtaining the briefing (on the grounds that everybody has internet access, at all relevant times) and this facilitates the prosecution. Whereas the previous system was so unusable for long trips that any half awake lawyer would have got the pilot off the hook.
The existing system is actually pretty good - for pilots who
- have mobile internet (not hard these days)
- use the narrow route briefing
- accept that a notam other than a prohibited area notification is not worth much (or anything, like the kite flying notams)
Notams are essential for VFR flight and everybody should have appropriate internet access, and always check them. After all, how does one get weather? Not by the old faxback from the met orifice, surely??? It's all on the internet.
But 99% of notams are still of zero relevance to flight
Here is my favourite: [my bold]
Q) LGGG/QAFXX/IV/NBO/W/000/999/3738N02456E356
FROM: 07/09/19 07:01 TO: PERM
E) NAVIGATIONAL WARNING:
WITH REFERENCE TO THE TURKISH AIP SUP 28/05 WE POINT OUT THE
FOLLOWING:
A.- THE ATHINAI/ISTANBUL FIR BOUNDARY BETWEEN POINTS 404500N0261000E
AND 360500N0300000E HAS BEEN CLEARLY ESTABLISHED BY ICAO REGIONAL
AGREEMENTS AND CONSEQUENTLY IS FOUNDED ON AN AUDOUBTEDLY SOUND LEGAL
BASIS AS NOTED IN OUR A1709/07 LGGGYNYX NOTAM.
MORE SPECIFICALLY THE DELIMITATION OF THIS BOUNDARY WAS COMPLETED
DURING THE SECOND MIDDLE EAST AND THIRD EUROPEAN-MEDITERRANEAN
REGIONAL AIR NAVIGATION MEETINGS (ISTANBUL OCT-NOV 1950 AND PARIS
FEB-MAR 1952) AND SUBSEQUENTLY APPROVED BY THE ICAO COUNCIL ON
DECEMBER 14 1950 AND JUNE 23 1952 RESPECTIVELY.
THE AGREED AND APPROVED ATHINAI/ISTANBUL FIR BOUNDARY IS CLEARLY
DEPICTED ON MAP NO 7 OF THE 1952 REGIONAL AIR NAVIGATION AGREEMENT
AND REPORTED IN THE AIR NAVIGATION PLAN FOR THE EUROPEAN REGION
CHARTS ATS 1A ICAO DOC 7754 AS WELL AS ON ALL THE FOLLOWING ICAO
AERONAUTICAL CHARTS THUS CONSTITUTING AN INTERNATIONAL LEGALLY
ESTABLISHED REGIME CONFIRMED BY A LONG STANDING PRACTICE NOT LEAVING
SPACE FOR MISLEADING OR MISINTERPRETATIONS.
B.- THE NEW COPS STATED IN THE AIP-GREECE PAGES RAC 3-1-27 AND
3-1-28 NAMELY BELGI RIKSO PIROX SOTIV AND BENEM CALCULATED AND
SUBMITTED BY ICAO IN HIS RELEVANT LETTERS TO GREECE AND TURKEY AND
SUBSEQUENTLY ACCEPTED AND PUBLISHED BY THEM AS WELL AS OTHER COPS
PREVIOUSLY PRESENTED NAMELY GOLDO AMANI VEXOL REDRA SITRU AND
BANRO COINCIDE WITH THE ATHINAI/ISTANBUL FIR BOUNDARY ACCORING TO
THE ICAO AERONAUTICAL CHARTS AND THE LONG STANDING PRACTICE AS
MENTIONED ABOVE.
FOR ALL THE AFOREMENTIONED REASONS FULLY CONSISTENT WITH ICAO
CONSIDERATIONS AND NEEDS THE TURKISH AIP SUP 28/05 IS IRRELEVANT IN
ITS ENTIRETY AND NOT PRODUCING ANY INTERNATIONALLY LEGAL EFFECT.
Wonderful stuff. They just don't make them like they used to.
As regards nonresponsive military units, a while ago I flew overhead Brize, around 1730L, and multiple calls elicited no response. Then another plane responded to me saying they could not get them up either, and they must be closed. We then joked (on the air) that if the Russians are going to invade they better do it after 5pm Now, I don't actually think Brize was closed. They merely shut their VHF desk. Mil comms are on UHF. Their Class D remains Class D H24 (AIUI) but now they will have traffic going overhead at 3600ft.
Why? Because it's "free".
The old system would have never worked for pilots who seriously go places. So, did the jails fill up with pilots who, after a 500nm flight from some dodgy foreign country, busted some TRA? I don't think so. Why not?
One answer might be that because the buck has been passed firmly to the pilot obtaining the briefing (on the grounds that everybody has internet access, at all relevant times) and this facilitates the prosecution. Whereas the previous system was so unusable for long trips that any half awake lawyer would have got the pilot off the hook.
The existing system is actually pretty good - for pilots who
- have mobile internet (not hard these days)
- use the narrow route briefing
- accept that a notam other than a prohibited area notification is not worth much (or anything, like the kite flying notams)
Notams are essential for VFR flight and everybody should have appropriate internet access, and always check them. After all, how does one get weather? Not by the old faxback from the met orifice, surely??? It's all on the internet.
But 99% of notams are still of zero relevance to flight
Here is my favourite: [my bold]
Q) LGGG/QAFXX/IV/NBO/W/000/999/3738N02456E356
FROM: 07/09/19 07:01 TO: PERM
E) NAVIGATIONAL WARNING:
WITH REFERENCE TO THE TURKISH AIP SUP 28/05 WE POINT OUT THE
FOLLOWING:
A.- THE ATHINAI/ISTANBUL FIR BOUNDARY BETWEEN POINTS 404500N0261000E
AND 360500N0300000E HAS BEEN CLEARLY ESTABLISHED BY ICAO REGIONAL
AGREEMENTS AND CONSEQUENTLY IS FOUNDED ON AN AUDOUBTEDLY SOUND LEGAL
BASIS AS NOTED IN OUR A1709/07 LGGGYNYX NOTAM.
MORE SPECIFICALLY THE DELIMITATION OF THIS BOUNDARY WAS COMPLETED
DURING THE SECOND MIDDLE EAST AND THIRD EUROPEAN-MEDITERRANEAN
REGIONAL AIR NAVIGATION MEETINGS (ISTANBUL OCT-NOV 1950 AND PARIS
FEB-MAR 1952) AND SUBSEQUENTLY APPROVED BY THE ICAO COUNCIL ON
DECEMBER 14 1950 AND JUNE 23 1952 RESPECTIVELY.
THE AGREED AND APPROVED ATHINAI/ISTANBUL FIR BOUNDARY IS CLEARLY
DEPICTED ON MAP NO 7 OF THE 1952 REGIONAL AIR NAVIGATION AGREEMENT
AND REPORTED IN THE AIR NAVIGATION PLAN FOR THE EUROPEAN REGION
CHARTS ATS 1A ICAO DOC 7754 AS WELL AS ON ALL THE FOLLOWING ICAO
AERONAUTICAL CHARTS THUS CONSTITUTING AN INTERNATIONAL LEGALLY
ESTABLISHED REGIME CONFIRMED BY A LONG STANDING PRACTICE NOT LEAVING
SPACE FOR MISLEADING OR MISINTERPRETATIONS.
B.- THE NEW COPS STATED IN THE AIP-GREECE PAGES RAC 3-1-27 AND
3-1-28 NAMELY BELGI RIKSO PIROX SOTIV AND BENEM CALCULATED AND
SUBMITTED BY ICAO IN HIS RELEVANT LETTERS TO GREECE AND TURKEY AND
SUBSEQUENTLY ACCEPTED AND PUBLISHED BY THEM AS WELL AS OTHER COPS
PREVIOUSLY PRESENTED NAMELY GOLDO AMANI VEXOL REDRA SITRU AND
BANRO COINCIDE WITH THE ATHINAI/ISTANBUL FIR BOUNDARY ACCORING TO
THE ICAO AERONAUTICAL CHARTS AND THE LONG STANDING PRACTICE AS
MENTIONED ABOVE.
FOR ALL THE AFOREMENTIONED REASONS FULLY CONSISTENT WITH ICAO
CONSIDERATIONS AND NEEDS THE TURKISH AIP SUP 28/05 IS IRRELEVANT IN
ITS ENTIRETY AND NOT PRODUCING ANY INTERNATIONALLY LEGAL EFFECT.
Wonderful stuff. They just don't make them like they used to.
As regards nonresponsive military units, a while ago I flew overhead Brize, around 1730L, and multiple calls elicited no response. Then another plane responded to me saying they could not get them up either, and they must be closed. We then joked (on the air) that if the Russians are going to invade they better do it after 5pm
Now, I don't actually think Brize was closed. They merely shut their VHF desk. Mil comms are on UHF. Their Class D remains Class D H24 (AIUI) but now they will have traffic going overhead at 3600ft.
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IO540: Regarding Brize, they are there, on 119.0.
It's complete nonsense and I wonder how many infringements they've had from people thinking no radio = class D reverts to G or something?
Several times out of hours other units have told me to freecall Brize 124.275 having presumably not read the Notam!
It's complete nonsense and I wonder how many infringements they've had from people thinking no radio = class D reverts to G or something?
Several times out of hours other units have told me to freecall Brize 124.275 having presumably not read the Notam!
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does anyone else think that it would be much better to have some way of publishing the places you are physically not allowed to fly?
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Personal Notam hates !!!!
1 - Selecting a departure and destination airfield and getting all the notams in the country regardless
2 - Being told where people are kite flying
3 - Nonsense about transponders and admin changes to ANO
4 - The junk notams that sit there forever
And the solution that I have found which gets rid of my hassles ???
"EADS BASIC" APPLICATION http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/publicuser/public/pu/login.do
ON THE "EUROCONTROL " WEBSITE
There is a free NAVPlot utility which is free and is downloaded as an icon to your desktop.
BENEFIT? Click on the icon and in a few seconds you get a map of UK (or other preferred country) with graphical representation of current Notams and a description. Bloody brilliant !
Enjoy !
1 - Selecting a departure and destination airfield and getting all the notams in the country regardless
2 - Being told where people are kite flying
3 - Nonsense about transponders and admin changes to ANO
4 - The junk notams that sit there forever
And the solution that I have found which gets rid of my hassles ???
"EADS BASIC" APPLICATION http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/publicuser/public/pu/login.do
ON THE "EUROCONTROL " WEBSITE
There is a free NAVPlot utility which is free and is downloaded as an icon to your desktop.
BENEFIT? Click on the icon and in a few seconds you get a map of UK (or other preferred country) with graphical representation of current Notams and a description. Bloody brilliant !
Enjoy !
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"So what else is there to do? Keep out of the ATZ, keep eyes out & hope F'boro & are able to spot things for you?!?"
You could get £400 worth of PCAS which will detect the Tutors Transponder and give range, relative height and height trend. Quite hard to bump into it if you know all that.
Rod1
You could get £400 worth of PCAS which will detect the Tutors Transponder and give range, relative height and height trend. Quite hard to bump into it if you know all that.
Rod1
Last edited by Rod1; 25th Jun 2009 at 12:19.
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The link doesn't bring me to the Navplot utility. A search of the Eurocontrol website for Navplot doen't turn up anything
I wouldn't bother though, Notam Map + a NATS login is much better.
