Thoughts on reducing risk of mid-airs.
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Final 3 Greens, I'm working on the assumption that you are being facetious.. (I hope)
As for yesterdays collision, local cloudbase was around 5000' QNH, the glider was most likely 3500-5000 (based on day conditions when I passed throug 30 mins later and a detailed conversation with one of the pilots who saw the collision).
Unfortunately, I don't think any of the suggestions above other than a good lookout would have stopped yesterdays incident.
Both aircraft were white for stuctural reasons (i.e. to stop GRP getting too hot), both were VFR outside controlled airspace. Neither aircraft would be talking to traffic advisory services, nor would they have been much use given the quantity of GA and gliders transiting through the Brize-Benson gap at that time.
There is more to add but I don't want to say anything that might be construed as suggesting blame.
Unfortunately it's one of those incidents where the only way to prevent it is a solid lookout on the part of both parties....
As for yesterdays collision, local cloudbase was around 5000' QNH, the glider was most likely 3500-5000 (based on day conditions when I passed throug 30 mins later and a detailed conversation with one of the pilots who saw the collision).
Unfortunately, I don't think any of the suggestions above other than a good lookout would have stopped yesterdays incident.
Both aircraft were white for stuctural reasons (i.e. to stop GRP getting too hot), both were VFR outside controlled airspace. Neither aircraft would be talking to traffic advisory services, nor would they have been much use given the quantity of GA and gliders transiting through the Brize-Benson gap at that time.
There is more to add but I don't want to say anything that might be construed as suggesting blame.
Unfortunately it's one of those incidents where the only way to prevent it is a solid lookout on the part of both parties....
Last edited by Discus_296; 15th Jun 2009 at 09:02. Reason: Typo
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From a controller's point of view: take an appropriate service and make sure you understand what the terms of that service are. I'm frequently amazed by pilots who just reply "roger" to everything and I'm certain they don't really take in what I'm saying to them.
Once I passed traffic information to an aircraft outside controlled airspace along these lines (good VMC):
There was plenty of time to turn or change level as I had given plenty of warning of the unknown traffic, but the pilot seemed intent on getting as close to it as possible. This has happened to me more than once.
I suppose the point of my post is that although keeping your eyes out of the window is the most important, an ATC service can be a big help for avoiding collisions, infringements etc but it is important to remember who is responsible for what under the service you are getting. Also that being in receipt of an ATC service does not make you immune from conflicts and you still have to put some effort in yourself.
I'd be interested to hear what the private flying fraternity thinks of the new services outside controlled airspace. I've certainly noticed from my end a lot of people who used to take a FIS are now taking Traffic or Deconfliction services, which I think is a step towards safer skies.
Once I passed traffic information to an aircraft outside controlled airspace along these lines (good VMC):
ATC: "G-CD unknown traffic 12 o'clock, 10 miles, opposite direction, same level, report visual"
PILOT: "Roger, G-CD."
ATC: "G-CD previously mentioned unknown traffic now 12 o'clock, 5 miles, opposite direction, same level. Do you have it in sight?"
PILOT: "Negative, G-CD."
ATC: "G-CD previously mentioned unknown traffic now 12 o'clock, 3 miles, opposite direction, same level. Do you have it in sight?"
PILOT: "Negative, G-CD."
ATC: "G-CD previously mentioned unknown traffic now 12 o'clock, 1 miles, opposite direction, same level. Do you have it in sight?"
PILOT: "Negative, G-CD."
PILOT: "We missed him, G-CD."
PILOT: "Roger, G-CD."
ATC: "G-CD previously mentioned unknown traffic now 12 o'clock, 5 miles, opposite direction, same level. Do you have it in sight?"
PILOT: "Negative, G-CD."
ATC: "G-CD previously mentioned unknown traffic now 12 o'clock, 3 miles, opposite direction, same level. Do you have it in sight?"
PILOT: "Negative, G-CD."
ATC: "G-CD previously mentioned unknown traffic now 12 o'clock, 1 miles, opposite direction, same level. Do you have it in sight?"
PILOT: "Negative, G-CD."
PILOT: "We missed him, G-CD."
I suppose the point of my post is that although keeping your eyes out of the window is the most important, an ATC service can be a big help for avoiding collisions, infringements etc but it is important to remember who is responsible for what under the service you are getting. Also that being in receipt of an ATC service does not make you immune from conflicts and you still have to put some effort in yourself.
I'd be interested to hear what the private flying fraternity thinks of the new services outside controlled airspace. I've certainly noticed from my end a lot of people who used to take a FIS are now taking Traffic or Deconfliction services, which I think is a step towards safer skies.
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reducing risks of mid-airs
Fuji Abound on page one had excellent tips for avoiding mid-airs.
LOOKOUT LOOKOUT LOOKOUT! That's number one lesson, and every other lesson thereafter at our gliding club, if Blogs tries to start a turn without a proper scan, we block the controls.
Too many gadgets in the cockpit. Helicopter flew over our wire launch at 600 feet AGL, apologised later because his head was inside, consulting his moving map!
So PLAN your flight, fly your plan, spend less time looking inside.
To avoid that swarm of gliders going cross country this past weekend, keep track of the weather. If the weather is c...p, gliders won't be going cross country, they may be practicing takeoffs, landings, circuits at the local sites. But on a day with cu all over the sky, gliders are everywhere and anywhere, all white, sometimes in gaggles, sometimes flying in a competition that has been NOTAMed. In which case up to 50 gliders may be following the designated triangular course. Usually working the height band from 2,000' to near cloud base. Under 2,000' we get nervous and start looking for a field.
Unfortunately there are choke points where controlled air space forces GA and gliders into fairly narrow corridors. Special care here, please.
If you can wear a parachute, do so. And know how to use it. You never know, it might save your life.
LOOKOUT LOOKOUT LOOKOUT! That's number one lesson, and every other lesson thereafter at our gliding club, if Blogs tries to start a turn without a proper scan, we block the controls.
Too many gadgets in the cockpit. Helicopter flew over our wire launch at 600 feet AGL, apologised later because his head was inside, consulting his moving map!
So PLAN your flight, fly your plan, spend less time looking inside.
To avoid that swarm of gliders going cross country this past weekend, keep track of the weather. If the weather is c...p, gliders won't be going cross country, they may be practicing takeoffs, landings, circuits at the local sites. But on a day with cu all over the sky, gliders are everywhere and anywhere, all white, sometimes in gaggles, sometimes flying in a competition that has been NOTAMed. In which case up to 50 gliders may be following the designated triangular course. Usually working the height band from 2,000' to near cloud base. Under 2,000' we get nervous and start looking for a field.
Unfortunately there are choke points where controlled air space forces GA and gliders into fairly narrow corridors. Special care here, please.
If you can wear a parachute, do so. And know how to use it. You never know, it might save your life.
Less time 'eyes-in' looking at gucci GPS moving maps.
More time 'eyes-out' looking for threats.
More time 'eyes-out' looking for threats.
Or...
Less time eyes in peering at charts and trying to compare that with ground features
More time eyes out looking for threats instead of peering at the ground.
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To add to Mary's words of wizdom, you can get the Lasham view of the forecast for gliding from their website:
LashamWeather.co.uk
And you can sign up to receive it by email whenever one is issued, which isn't every day by any means.
There isn't an archive of old forecasts there, but if I remember correctly yesterday's forecast was for a possible 'the day of the year' - and the flights posted subsequently suggest that indeed it was, with the longest being over 800k and many flights of 300k and more. Certainly a day to expect lots of gaggles, plus lots of gliders flying along under cloud streets.
LashamWeather.co.uk
And you can sign up to receive it by email whenever one is issued, which isn't every day by any means.
There isn't an archive of old forecasts there, but if I remember correctly yesterday's forecast was for a possible 'the day of the year' - and the flights posted subsequently suggest that indeed it was, with the longest being over 800k and many flights of 300k and more. Certainly a day to expect lots of gaggles, plus lots of gliders flying along under cloud streets.
There was plenty of time to turn or change level as I had given plenty of warning of the unknown traffic, but the pilot seemed intent on getting as close to it as possible.
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It may be obvious to you which way to turn to increase separation, but it's not necessarily obvious to the pilot. "12 o'clock" is a 30 degree wide sector, and a turn away may just make things worse. What's more helpful from a traffic point of view is knowing which side the target is likely to pass. That allows a manoeuvre to increase separation.
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gla-Quote..'m surprised that no one has said that the new air traffic services that came out in march just might have a say in what caused the accident.unquote
What sort of a statement is that???????/ all these collisions have taken place in class G see and be seen airspace..........the only sure way to help to prevent a collision ATC wise would be that every aircraft flying would recieve some form of radar service.....as you well know that is totally unpracticle and with the UK's radar coverage below 2000ft very limited it I am affraid down to the mark one eyeball!!!!
What sort of a statement is that???????/ all these collisions have taken place in class G see and be seen airspace..........the only sure way to help to prevent a collision ATC wise would be that every aircraft flying would recieve some form of radar service.....as you well know that is totally unpracticle and with the UK's radar coverage below 2000ft very limited it I am affraid down to the mark one eyeball!!!!
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Colour is quite important in seeing other aircraft.
White is very often more difficult to pick out in the sky than a darker colour,I'm not advocating that every aircraft is re-painted a dark colour,but maybe it should be a consideration when re-spraying or the choice from new.
I fly a dark coloured aircraft and friends say it is much easier to see than white aircraft ,for example.
Lister
White is very often more difficult to pick out in the sky than a darker colour,I'm not advocating that every aircraft is re-painted a dark colour,but maybe it should be a consideration when re-spraying or the choice from new.
I fly a dark coloured aircraft and friends say it is much easier to see than white aircraft ,for example.
Lister
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White aircraft amaze me...
I was walking along the beach the other day with light aircraft going over a few thou' above from the local airport. I could not spot one of them, until a Duchess when over. This particular Duchess had blue wingtips and tail, and I could clearly see these blue bits. The rest was which and impossible to see - it was like 3 bits of dark blue zooming across the sky.
Why do people have white aeroplanes? Surely a black one is the best colour or if you don't like black, how about dark blue.
Luckily my aeroplane is dark blue and red, and I have a Zaon box linked to my GPS and transpond Mode C, but it wouldn't help me avoid a glider.
I was walking along the beach the other day with light aircraft going over a few thou' above from the local airport. I could not spot one of them, until a Duchess when over. This particular Duchess had blue wingtips and tail, and I could clearly see these blue bits. The rest was which and impossible to see - it was like 3 bits of dark blue zooming across the sky.
Why do people have white aeroplanes? Surely a black one is the best colour or if you don't like black, how about dark blue.
Luckily my aeroplane is dark blue and red, and I have a Zaon box linked to my GPS and transpond Mode C, but it wouldn't help me avoid a glider.
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Unfortunately composite can and will be damaged due to heating by solar rays.
My glider has orange wingtips and the difference is huge... it goes from the slightly-warm of the white gelcoat to impossible-to-keep-a-hand-on of the orange strips.
I wonder how hot it could become if it was darker!
However darker colors can be considered for the undercarriage.
My glider has orange wingtips and the difference is huge... it goes from the slightly-warm of the white gelcoat to impossible-to-keep-a-hand-on of the orange strips.
I wonder how hot it could become if it was darker!
However darker colors can be considered for the undercarriage.
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Cirrus spent a fortune getting some fancy colours, such as crimson, approved for their aircraft, but they have to be highly reflective to stop the plastic overheating. Other manufacturers, such as Diamond, are less market oriented, so have taken the simple solution of offering any colour as long as it's white - with a choice of go faster stripes.
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surely the paint technology exists so you can have coloured paint that does not absorb heat??
If all aircraft were coloured it would be so much easier. I find it difficult to spot aircraft even if I know the general direction where to look.
I have not completed by PPL yet but did my QXC on Saturday. What is the correct "scan technique"?
If all aircraft were coloured it would be so much easier. I find it difficult to spot aircraft even if I know the general direction where to look.
I have not completed by PPL yet but did my QXC on Saturday. What is the correct "scan technique"?
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An excellent question from RansS9, and a thoughtful set of replies.
I too was flying yesterday, and we heard about the collision not long after it happened, not far to our south: it certainly provoked much thought and discussion, especially as the high cloud base and gin-clear air seemed pretty much ideal for aviation. It often seems to be the best days when the collisions happen, though: everyone gets their aircraft out (our hangar was almost empty yesterday, for the first time in months), and presumably the probability of a collision depends upon the square of the number of aircraft aloft. But one also wonders whether there's a 'first day of spring' effect, and not all pilots are as current as they might be. Perhaps the clear vis. also leads to a degree of complacency. (I stress that I'm musing in general, and not thinking of yesterday's events.)
It's also true that the Brize-Benson gap is pretty busy, as are all other bottlenecks: Keevil, Chilbolton, routes to the Isle of Wight... Maybe there's something to be said for *encouraging* GA to route through controlled airspace when it fancies, but the odd transit refusal and widespread disdain for unpolished R/T put most GA pilots off, so they never get to practice it either.
Aircraft colours: white shows up well from above, black from below (though most aircraft look black against cloud) ... but I'm not aware of any conclusive findings about the ones at your own level that'll get you. I've never spotted an aircraft from its strobes but, on the other hand, landing lights can be very obvious, though they must consume a lot of power.
Would Mode-S/TCAS/Flarm help? My guess is that if every aircraft had it (presuming low power versions available etc. - don't start that debate!) then you'd want the clever algorithms of Flarm to make much sense of the dense mixed traffic on a sunny summer Sunday. But Flarm has only got where it has because it's been unofficial: as soon as it became a defined and regulated system, even if targetted at GA specifically, that innovation would all but stop.
All rather tricky...
Windrusher
I too was flying yesterday, and we heard about the collision not long after it happened, not far to our south: it certainly provoked much thought and discussion, especially as the high cloud base and gin-clear air seemed pretty much ideal for aviation. It often seems to be the best days when the collisions happen, though: everyone gets their aircraft out (our hangar was almost empty yesterday, for the first time in months), and presumably the probability of a collision depends upon the square of the number of aircraft aloft. But one also wonders whether there's a 'first day of spring' effect, and not all pilots are as current as they might be. Perhaps the clear vis. also leads to a degree of complacency. (I stress that I'm musing in general, and not thinking of yesterday's events.)
It's also true that the Brize-Benson gap is pretty busy, as are all other bottlenecks: Keevil, Chilbolton, routes to the Isle of Wight... Maybe there's something to be said for *encouraging* GA to route through controlled airspace when it fancies, but the odd transit refusal and widespread disdain for unpolished R/T put most GA pilots off, so they never get to practice it either.
Aircraft colours: white shows up well from above, black from below (though most aircraft look black against cloud) ... but I'm not aware of any conclusive findings about the ones at your own level that'll get you. I've never spotted an aircraft from its strobes but, on the other hand, landing lights can be very obvious, though they must consume a lot of power.
Would Mode-S/TCAS/Flarm help? My guess is that if every aircraft had it (presuming low power versions available etc. - don't start that debate!) then you'd want the clever algorithms of Flarm to make much sense of the dense mixed traffic on a sunny summer Sunday. But Flarm has only got where it has because it's been unofficial: as soon as it became a defined and regulated system, even if targetted at GA specifically, that innovation would all but stop.
All rather tricky...
Windrusher
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Correct scan technique as taught me for gliding is hard to explain in words and much easier to demonstrate, as are the pitfalls. Suggest you ask your instructor.
BTW I find it scary that having reached the point of flying your QXC you are not sure about this... Is it not a very important bit of getting a PPL?
BTW I find it scary that having reached the point of flying your QXC you are not sure about this... Is it not a very important bit of getting a PPL?
Last edited by cats_five; 15th Jun 2009 at 16:19. Reason: typos corrected
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Maybe there's something to be said for *encouraging* GA to route through controlled airspace when it fancies,
Unfortunately there are areas where the airspace is Class A and hence not available to VFR. This is wrong in my opinion and if it were reclassified as D up to say 10k' then more people could mnake use of it.
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I'd be interested to hear what the private flying fraternity thinks of the new services outside controlled airspace. I've certainly noticed from my end a lot of people who used to take a FIS are now taking Traffic or Deconfliction services, which I think is a step towards safer skies
Pace
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I must admit, this is the only thing that scares me about GA.
I'm working for a PPL and my local area is very busy with traffic funneling into and out of the LLR between Manchester and Liverpool, and on more than one occasion I've had traffic prox of less than 500 meters. Not bad in itself, but both times I've only spotted them as they are looming in windscreen, certainly too late to really do anything meaningful.
I keep heads up, a constant scan, clear all my turns and listen out, but I still feel like we missed by chance. The rate at which you can close down another aircraft is surprising, one second it's a tiny speck, in another it's close enough to read the reg.
It's not always the case that you can do anything about it either - the last one was someone climbing below us on an almost converging track from behind. And those are just the ones that get noticed - how many go unnoticed?
Strobes, lights, whatever - there will always be one, once, that you miss, no matter how good your lookout is. If you think you'll never miss one, you're almost certainly wrong. It's like closing your eyes and running across the road, chances are you won't be hit, but would you take the chance?
I have no intention of going out for a few hours flying in the afternoon and never coming back. I'll almost certainly be buying parachute to go along with my PPL, because, well, **** happens.
I'm working for a PPL and my local area is very busy with traffic funneling into and out of the LLR between Manchester and Liverpool, and on more than one occasion I've had traffic prox of less than 500 meters. Not bad in itself, but both times I've only spotted them as they are looming in windscreen, certainly too late to really do anything meaningful.
I keep heads up, a constant scan, clear all my turns and listen out, but I still feel like we missed by chance. The rate at which you can close down another aircraft is surprising, one second it's a tiny speck, in another it's close enough to read the reg.
It's not always the case that you can do anything about it either - the last one was someone climbing below us on an almost converging track from behind. And those are just the ones that get noticed - how many go unnoticed?
Strobes, lights, whatever - there will always be one, once, that you miss, no matter how good your lookout is. If you think you'll never miss one, you're almost certainly wrong. It's like closing your eyes and running across the road, chances are you won't be hit, but would you take the chance?
I have no intention of going out for a few hours flying in the afternoon and never coming back. I'll almost certainly be buying parachute to go along with my PPL, because, well, **** happens.